If you are using an ecollar as an aversive, ie to work with very few repetitions, then it has to make an impact to be effective. If using one as part of an overall obedience programme it would need to be trained in like any other gadget. A dog does not immediately know that click means treat - it has to be trained in. A dog would not know that a minimal tingle is a signal to recall unless it is trained in. Training takes more than 2 or 3 repetitions to be considered solid.

I know hundreds of sibes and mals that never go off lead and are very happy, because their owners have considered what the dogs were bred to do and accomodate that,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, by the sounds of this you chose to put a collar on a dog (a breed that is known to be difficult to train a recall in) because you couldn't meet those needs financially, or am i reading this wrong, it looks to me that it was for your benefit not Bens, because you couldn't give him the work that he truly needed ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

I know, but I happen to think that is unacceptable. I know many are worked in harness, but I have already explained that we do not have the resources to be able to do that. It would cost thousands of pounds for the rigs plus a vehicle to carry all the equipment in. With our previous Mal cross, Hal, we had him from puppihood and trained a good reasonable recall. It is possible if you get the dog as a puppy, but it is very difficult. However, we managed it. Also our other dog Tai, he has a good recall as well. I don't personally accept that it is impossible to let a Mal or a husky off the lead, but that's just my opinion and my own personal experience.

With Ben, it was a completely different story, we took him on aged approximately 5 ish, and he had alternated between homes where he was cruelly treated, to homes where he was over-indulged, allowed to do what he wanted, or somewhere in between. No-one had managed to "tame" him for want of a better word. We did ... we turned him from an unpredictably savage dog, into something loveable, obedient and a pleasure to own ... except that he would on occasions run off for periods of time up to 15 or 20 minutes. We tried everything, nothing worked, and such could Ben's aggression be with male black dogs, in particular labradors, that we were faced with a lifetime on the lead or an e collar or euthanasia. We chose to try an e collar, and it was 100% successful - against my better judgment, I have to say, but I was wrong, it has been a total success and I have said before if anyone wants to have a meet, I am more than happy.

Not so with Ben - he "got it" instantly. Remember his breeding ... he is 5th generation wolf cross, very, very smart - far smarter than me! Not that that would be difficult.

Incidentally, clicker training did not work with Ben, nothing did, only the e collar. I should add that it was only recall that we had problems with - his general level of obedience was acceptable.

O tell me about it - my daughter has 2 chihuahuas, and I constantly trip over the poor things, or tread on them! They shriek like banshees and I feel dreadful, but they are never hurt!

But if you had given him to someone who was going to run him in a rig (and there are lots of people out there that do) he wouldn't have needed the recall because he would have been doing the job he was bred for and he wouldn't have got the opportunity to flatten black dogs, because he'd have got all he needed from working, which comes back to it wasn't in his best interests to use a collar it was in yours, sorry thats just the way i see it, if it had been me, i would have found a way to give him what he needed on lead or found someone else who could do that, and don';t tell me they don't exist because i have just spent a weekend with a whole gang of people who work for sled dog rescues,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

I have never had to keep a DA dog on a lead, I have a good recall with them so don't need to, I taught them using positive methods, I also taught them they have nothing to fear with other dogs so instead of wanting to attach them they changed, they want to play with them and become really good with other dogs.


Even when he is too far away to hear you? This is when I use a whistle, the sound travels a lot further.

It is your choice to get a dog like this, it is up to you to meet all his needs.

Thankfully you understand this, so many don't.


Thank you.


It is up to us when training our dogs to find out what they will work for, dogs will work for different things, even dogs that will work for treats won't work for them if they have just been fed. We have to use our brains.


Many, if not most, trainers and behaviourists don't have experience of aggression in dogs and many don't think that they can deal with it. On forums you constantly see owners with aggressive dogs see trainers/behaviourists with little or no experience of aggression, they had often made the problem worse.


As you say timing is really important, I found that I had to get the command in before they finished the first stride, gradually that extended until I could call my dog off when she was chasing prey.


When you are out with any animal you have to be alert all the time, there should be no going to sleep, that is when accidents happen.

Salukis are difficult to teach a good recall, I have done it with a foster boy I had, he was a Saluki Lurcher.

I don't like my dogs chasing anything because they will kill, several have managed to kill voles when on a short lead. My Greyhound has also managed to get a cat, hedgehog and rabbit when on a short lead. All he did with all of them was dive under a bush and came out with them in his mouth.

I have put in bold what I find insulting, to say to anyone My dear girl just shows how frustrated you are that you are insulting people who you can't convince to accept your idea of the shock collar.

You have no idea of what breeds of dog I have experience of, so to put up on a forum that you think I don't have any idea of some breeds is insulting. I meet my dogs needs no matter what their breed is, it is how I control my dogs, you have had to resort to a shock collar to control your dog.

As you were ignoring my questions on how you used the collar I had no choice but to assume how you were using it. Why you were refusing to answer my questions only you know but it does look like you didn't know the answer.

I am not trying to convince you about these collars but I am trying to give others information so they can make their minds up. It is your business if you use one but don't tell others who have the same control of their dogs by positive methods that they are wrong and positive methods don't work, they do work as long as the trainer is consistant and considers the dog.

It really doesn't matter what cross he is or even if he was pure wolf - learning theory is learning theory.

If he 'got' the ecollar straight away, there is a reason for it and I would suggest that the reason is that the aversive was strong enough for him not to want it repeated

Giving Ben away - passing on the problem - was just not an option. I wish I could send you a PM because I would explain, but I can't, so therefore you will have to trust me when I say he was what Cesar Millan (whether you like him or not, he is right about red zoners) calls a "Red Zoner". Without boasting or bragging, we have some 15 years experience of wolf crosses - including a few weeks of an F1 living with us in our home - and it would have been totally irresponsible to pass this dog on to anyone else. The only choice we had was to put him down, or give an e collar a try. This dog is not just a sled dog, a husky or mal cross - he is all of those things, but in addition he has the intelligence and extra arsiness of a wolf cross. This is a dog who NEEDS to be controlled, to be dominated, to be a subordinate. He is a pack animal through and through, and to be happy and fulfilled he needs to know that my husband and I are pack leader. Whether or not you believe in pack theory is immaterial - it is just that in Ben's case, and with his father too, to be happy he needs to feel secure, and to feel secure he has to know that there is someone who is not frightened of him - a superior being, a God, for want of a better word.

We took a gamble, and we won. It wasn't much of a gamble because really there was no choice - have the dog put down, or try the e collar, We HAD to obtain a good recall with him, and we have.

Sometimes with dogs - and horses too - you have to do something that you are not comfortable with. It takes guts and it takes bravery to do something with confidence that you are not happy about doing. You cannot use an e collar on a dog in a faint-hearted way - a dog like Ben will pick up instantly on your fear, and you would have lost everything. I couldn't do it ... not then ... I have never ever given him a zap, but when I had to walk the dogs out on my own the other day on the harness, I took the controller with me just in case. Ben was absolutely as good as gold, and we passed 2 dogs - one of which was barking furiously at him, but he totally ignored it.

I would advise anybody if all else had failed, rather than resort to keeping their dog on a lead the whole time because they were unable to train a reliable recall, approach a trainer who can show them how to use an e collar responsibly.