Dog to dog Socialisation - Research thread.

Im looking into modern dog training and behaviour "trends" and am currently fascinated on peoples views about the following.....

Should puppies be socialised with other puppies and or adult dogs?

If so, to what extent?

And if not, why not?

And and what if anything would you propose should happen instead of the time spent socialising??

In my experience the usefullness and interest of such research threads is often increased if people answer the orignal post without reading other posts and therefore considering/reflecting other peoples views first. But obviously its up to you. Many thanks for your help.

Background.....
I came across some old friends of mine the other day who I taught with their dogs some 15 years ago . They had since gone on to become trainers and "behaviourists" themselves. They had been on a lot of Guide dog training, John Rogerson courses, and read books some of which Id never heard of, so their views where very different to mine and I found it fascinating that people should have such totally diverse views in such a relatively short space of time.

So I figured Id like to get a grip on what everyone elses views are on such matters. Thank you for your input. I will be running this same thread on several different forums to see whether "Forum concensus" changes the responses. Thank you for your input.

yes i think they should be socialized early but its not the end of the world as along as you have the time and patience to do it at a later date before they get too old though. our jack was a resuce and hadnt be socialised previously he was nearly 2 when we got him but after spending time socializing him hes great with other dogs now. but ive heard it makes it much easier if you can do it with pups.

Don't know if JR has changed recently but I disagree strongly with his previous advice on puppy socialisation. I have a houseful of dogs and several friends dogs who disprove his theory that pups shouldn't have so much access to others.

Also many many pups in rescue we allowed with all manner of older dogs/pups and they turned out well adjusted and socialised.

rune

All of mine have always had as much socialisation with other dogs as possible, personally I think they need to meet the good, the bad and the ugly in order to know how to interact with others in an acceptable manner. All of mine have excellent doggy manners and can be called away from anything whether it's having an absolute ball or another dog trying to have a pop. Practice, practice, practise, they are off lead from day one, they meet and greet whoever we meet on our walks and they learn to deal with it, from timid dogs, to aggressive dogs, from pushchairs, bicycles and horses we meet them all and they learn very early that it's no big deal. Although I can't comment on modern day methods because I'm 56 and have always trained in the same way and the only trainer and behaviourist my dogs have anything to do with is me and I have no training to do either but seem to manage just fine.

Doesnt it make sense that your pups socialisation is as wide as possible ..Other puppies older dogs every type of animal you have a access too..
Why you want to limit it in anyway ??

Part of JR's theory (correct me if I am wrong anyone?) is that if the dog plays too much with others it will not bond with its owner. Also that adult dogs should not tell pups off as it can adversly affect them. Play fighting should be discouraged as it is practisinga behaviour that you don't want the dog to perfect.

IMO play fighting teaches the dog its limits and those of other dogs, older dogs teach the pup manners and the bond with the owner shouldn't be affected---I have never found that it is.

rune

I think puppy socialisation is vital in producing a well adjusted adult dog. In my view that one of the main reasons I would want to leave a pup until ver very minimum 8 weeks, the leasons the learn between 6-8 weeks with their brothers, sisters and mum is vital. I run puppy walks for this reason.

A dog can teach another dog something in a few minutes it would take weeks for us to try to convey to them. Originally my dog Totts was so nervous she would panick any time anything was asked of her. So we trained her with Muffin originally (my older chilled out dog) who she watched and copy catted to get treats. When we first introduced our pup Amber to Muffin she was going "007" around the walls she was so scared. We introduced her to as many dogs as possible after that and now she loves meeting dogs. If we hadnt done that her nerves could have turned into nervous aggresion at an older age.

I believe the best thing you can do is introduce a pup to as many situations as possible without putting them in direct danger, to minimise fear of the unknown.

I use the same idea when Ive rescued a dog, although they may not have had the best start, their first few weeks I believe to be the most important in letting them understand their new life.

sounds sensible to me. My dogs have mainly been rescues and usually with limited socialisation in the early days and we have managed fine, but why create complications for yourself if you don't need to. If they can grow up being used to the 'big bad world' and not finding it scary then it makes life so much easier than trying to play catch up later

Well none of my dogs are more bonded with each other than they are me and they have had varied backgrounds. I am basically the world to all my dogs.

Mine all playfight with each other (and most of them will with me too) and they are all soft mouthed and very careful not to catch me with teeth as they know us humans are fragile (Billys big head is a different matter though, that hurts when he cuddles you and catches your nose instead). I don't see any reason why a dog shouldn't play fight? As you say, it teaches limits and boundaries. What a sad world it would be if play wasn't allowed

JR = John Rogerson?
I am very wary of accepting anyone`s views as Gospel - any theory that encompasses all dogs in all situations would be so broad as to be fairly pointless.
FWIW I think socialisation is an ongoing process. My dogs have always been around loads of other dogs and now are content to ignore most of them. Which is exactly what I want. I frequently come across dogs (on lead) frantic to socialise but prevented. I can`t help feeling the more socialisation, the better. But I`ve never had a pup, so I can`t comment on that side of it.