Didn't say stupid, just that they did things differently over that side of the pond, i believe that its also acceptable to crate puppies for 10hrs a day, its not something that we find acceptable in the uk, and neither do 90% of the british dog owning public find Alpha rolls do any good, your just likely to end up getting bitten, and the dog being labelled aggressive and PTS

Well negative reinforcement does not mean that you are making dog scared. Where did you read that?
Positive and negative are 2 sides of the same coin. To do just positive is just as bad as to do just negative.
Here is a scenario: You have cane corso x pressa mix about 80-100kg by nature aggressive dog trying to attack another dog or child.
Question: What kind of a positive reinforcement are you going to pull out of you positive only arsenal? Treat? Kind word? Pet on the head?
Please elaborate.
Prager Hans

this is why that advice was dangerous and misguided:

Dangers of Alpha Rolling

Greta Kaplan, CPDT, CDBCDog

I read a tragic news article: “Puppy Owner Pleads Not Guilty for Choking Animal to Death,” Associated Press, February 26, 2010. According to the article, the owner admitted holding the 10-week old Labrador puppy down for 20 seconds after the puppy bit the owner’s girlfriend on the nose, causing what the Animal Services officer called “a minor scratch.”. According to the officer, the puppy was taken to an emergency vet where he “couldn’t walk, was breathing poorly and had reddish saliva and blue gums.” The puppy died.

Without further information, of course, we do not know what motivated the owner. Perhaps he was really angry and lost his temper, badly enough to kill the puppy. Certainly, this does not match the description given.

If we accept the description given, the owner deliberately held the puppy down, using quite a lot of force. It appears this holding-down maneuver was intended as a consequence for a bite to the girlfriend’s nose. It’s reasonable to conclude that the owner believed two things: First, that the bite to the nose was a seriously unacceptable, even aggressive act that justified severe discipline; and second, that holding a puppy down with severe force is an appropriate way to discipline a dog, including a ten-week old puppy.

Both of these propositions are false. First, puppies this age bite. It’s developmentally normal and almost never “aggressive.” (Serious aggression in puppies this age is so rare that it causes a flurry on trainer email lists if observed; many trainers simply never have seen it.) Second, holding a dog or puppy down as a form of discipline is dangerous and unnecessary.

The danger can be to the person if the dog is an adult, particularly a large one. Holding a large adult dog down puts the person’s face near the dog’s mouth, and a dog who panics, or decides not to put up with the human aggression, is very likely to target the face simply because it’s nearby. It can also be dangerous to the dog, as in this case, where the size and strength disparity was extreme.

This type of discipline is unnecessary. Dogs simply do not use “holding each other down” or “rolling other dogs over” as a way of punishing or enforcing status. Wolves may do it, but they do so extremely rarely; but in any case, dogs are not wolves; and even if they were, we are not wolves and do not remotely understand how and when to apply this type of serious, dangerous consequence. There are numerous other safer, saner and more effective ways to influence your dog’s behavior.

Where, then, would an owner get the idea this was a good tactic? One popular dog training book by The Monks of New Skete advocated the “alpha roll” in its first edition, about three decades ago. The second edition, much more recent, retracted that advice with an apology. However, the original edition is still out there; I recently saw a client who’d done a few alpha rolls on her young dog, based on that very book, which she’d picked up secondhand.

Realistically, though, not many people read that book any more. On the other hand, every week, millions of people watch a television star who often performs maneuvers very like the one that killed this puppy. You can watch, on YouTube and the National Geographic website, as this entertainer grabs dogs and pushes or slams them onto the ground. In some clips, you can literally see the dog’s tongue turning blue after some time on the ground. No wonder many pet owners might get the idea that this is a potentially Border Collie (5 years, 6 months)appropriate response to perceived aggression from the dog.

And, this same performer often delivers this type of consequence for behavior described as “dominant.” I don’t doubt that he might describe normal puppy biting as “dominant.” So again, it’s no wonder that a pet owner might be led to perceive normal puppy biting as “dominant,” and to respond in a way he’d seen repeatedly modeled on TV.

I do not know whether the owner of the dead puppy, who is being charged with felony animal abuse, has watched “The Dog Whisperer” on TV. However, I don’t know one competent behavior consultant who did not immediately, on seeing this tragic news story, make the same guess I did. This type of human behavior is repeatedly modeled by a charismatic, persuasive, and apparently effective role model on an extremely popular television show. It is inevitable that someone was going to “try this at home” with disastrous results; and this puppy’s death might be that disastrous result.
source: http://companionanimalsolutions.com/...alpha-rolling/

these are other sites that point out why you should not pin the dog / puppy down. They are US sites, since you seem a tad anti-European.

http://dogs.about.com/cs/basictraining/a/alpha_roll.htm

http://tarastermer.wordpress.com/200...roll-your-dog/

forum link removed

I admit that you have some points . Alpha roll is usually useless after 6 - 12 weeks of age. Then needs to be used different approach.
Prager Hans

One thing I aint gonna do is "Alpha roll it"!!!!!!!

MY dog wouldn't be in that position....... And I have never Alpha rolled any of my dogs!!! Haven't needed to or wanted to!!!

Well said Mini.

PH I had a 70kg nervous Bernese and if I had pinned him as a puppy he would of turned out far worse than he was he would listen to me and my family and trusted us implicitly.


Sadly when he became hospitilised due to illness he had to be sedated for us to leave him with strangers due to his fear. Within 2 days he was friends with his neurologist and her nursing team needed no muzzle to be bathed or groomed just for invasive treatment. No puppy rolling involved at any stgae of his life just calm, fair, positive training and he did us proud with how well he behaved when he and us needed him too. I am afraid most of us here in the UK do not beleive in the Alpha atttiude of training and that your puppy is trying to dominate you or take over the world. They are just being puppies and with patience and time will learn what is acceptable the same as children.

AGGRESSION:

Dog aggression is exhibited by growling, snarling, showing teeth,

lunging and biting.

It is important to know that any dog has the potential to become aggressive,

regardless of breed or history.

However,

dogs with violent or abusive histories and those bred from dogs with aggressive tendencies are much more likely to exhibit aggressive behavior towards people or other dogs,

Reasons for aggression are basically the same as the reasons a dog will bite or snap,

But overall canine aggression is a much more serious problem.

If your dog has aggressive tendencies, consult your vet first –
it may stem from a health problem.

Then, seek the help of an experienced dog trainer.

Serious measures should be taken to keep others safe from aggressive dogs!
Source:

This is not a "alpha " roll!!! The guy killed his 10 week old pup which was playfull!!! Do you even know what is alpha roll and how and when it needs to be aplied. Now I say this I do not think that it is totally effective. But I am not against it and I would most definitely not compared to this guy killing his pup!

Prager Hans

Well some sanity is here after all.
Prager Hans

Jeez this is a 14 week old puppy not an aggressive adult ! Nice to see you can copy & paste tho'

Sheez are the summer holidays over soon ?