First of all why do wolves keep being mentioned , we are talking about dogs

Gnasher- as you know I have a dog of very similiar breeding to your gorgeous Hal, and to be honest I would never CM him, he has been a pleasure (most of the time) to own so far. Yes, I have had to do loads of training with him, especially to get an excellent recall, he is friendly to all dogs, and obedient (most of the time) . In fact I don't think it would work with him, we have built up a good relationship , we respect each other, 99% of the time if he tell him to do somethnig he will do it,straightaway even now when he is a mess of raging hormones, teenage stage


I don't subscribe to the dominance theory, I don't believe dogs have a domination masterplan.
We are human, they are dogs, not human, not wolves, dogs.
I do believe a dog needs guidance/a teacher/ but it does not need to be dominated. I agree some people do spoil their dogs by treating them like children, I do hate seeing any dog carried, faffed about, dyed, clothed, except for a dog coat if the dog reaslly needs it(I had one for my elderly dog). I hate the fact people get a dog , then don't teach it any manners, or socialise it, aslo clicker training can be great, and I have used it on my two, when they both very little and they picked commands up so quickly, and I still do little clicker sessions with them now, because they enjoy it.

I do like seeing dogs be natural and be dogs, and my two every day have a walk on a field where they meet their dog friends and just tear around in little packs, being dogs, and I have never seen any of the dogs alpha roll each other. I have seen air snapping but no contact when one has got out of line, and the little Jrt bitch who is like "The boss" just gives a naughty dog a certain look, and everything calms down. They have never become confrontational with each other, now this group can range from four or five to up to about twelve dogs from different families, of all sizes, just being left alone to play and socialise.

I have used hard work, manners, and love and care to train my dogs,the same as my parents used on the farm collies and terriers, and the family Gsd's and my grandparents used on their Rotties. What I am getting at we have all owned very different dogs, but we have all used basic obedience , teaching manners and what is acceptable behaviour, and affection.With a good regime of exercise. I think this methodlogy(sp?) works with all dogs. It is common sense.

I have thought back to when I was little and I can remember packs of dogs running loose in my village, and some dogs were bloomin' scary and were thugs, and they should not of been loose, I can remember having to cycle really fast past certain dogs who were allowed ot roam. There are two dogs where I live who are continually loose, on is very laid back follows us when we are out walking the dogs, no problem, one is a nasty dog, who I try to avoid.

Someone made the point of castration, Well the only thing I have ever heard Cesar Milan say that I agree with, is he thinks all pets should be neutered. He says that if dogs are always sexually excited it makes them harder to calm down, if they have no urges it is a sense of relief for them. To be always up for it, especially males, and not getting a release would be very frustrating.

I remember packs of thse latchkey dogs roamig when I was a child, I remember them coming into the school playground and chasing and biting children and teachers. I also remember how hard it was to go out and walk a dog any time one of these free roaming bitches was in season as it made you a target for all the frustrated male admirers.

Back then there was no dog warden that we ever saw, there were whispers of the dog catcher but no-ones dogs were ever "caught" or seemed to be The fact is that some people treat their dogs the same as they did then, they use a newspaper and a flat hand to discipline them, rub their noses in their own wee and poo if they go in the wrong place Some people treat their dogs like children and they did back then too so that isn't new by any means.

What is different is the way we find out about it. Newspapers want to sell as many copies as possible so they print what the public wants to hear and unfortunately they don't want to hear about dogs being nice and well behaved and saving people, dogs for the disabled or hearing dogs for deaf people. They want to hear about people being attacked, mauled, mutilated, they don't want to know the breed they just assume it's a bull terrier cos that is what the media tells them it is every time even if they are wrong....

30 years ago when I was a child people were bitten all the time by free roaming dogs, they were chased down the street and it was a standing joke for the postie The only people you reported it to were the police and they weren't interested so it was never publicised but it did happen, all the time. These days if a rottie walked down the street and farted there would be a swat team out to shoot it cos it was acting aggressively

The biggest problem with the dogs on CM "entertainment show" is lack of exercise and mental stimulation and that happens in this country just as much as in america. Dogs are also affected by the additives in the food they eat, I have one here that turns into a raving loony if he has anything with nasties in it

Trip trap trip trap............

Then we disagree, dogs that roamed in packs doing the damage just one does when its out now? Show me proof of that and Ill show you heaps of proof that one dog getting out and attacking people is MASSIVELY more common now than it ever was.

how can I show you proof of what happened over 30 years ago while I was growing up?:smt102

The lone dogs that attack are not necessarily solely due to the owners inability to train their dog but a combination of breeding, lack of exercise and the all too common issue of people taking on breeds that they have no knowledge of for the wrong reasons. There still seems to be this notion that a dog should tolerate what is done to it because it's a dog. If I dragged a cat around by the the scruff and it scratched and bit me then that would be my own fault but if I did the same to a dog it would be considered the dogs fault? Why are children allowed to harass the family dog but expected to leave the cat alone when the dog is often capable of far more damage:smt102 I was told when I got deef as a pup that there was no point training him until he was 6 months old! I started training him at 6 weeks! Where on earth does that idea come from? Can you imagine leaving a child until its a teenager and then disciplining it?:smt005 Yet that is ok for a dog apparently

I would like to see that proof though dawn, I still think that it is down to the media and how these things are reported rather than an actual increase in attacks

Spot: hi there. I did not say that I was too old to learn. You are NEVER too old, too wise, or too experienced to learn. What I did say is that I dislike intensely being told what to do in the form or manner in which we are discussing. Viz: if you want to adopt this male dog, you must contractually agree to chop his bits off, willy nilly (no pun intended ). Unless there was a medical reason for this, or at least a behavioural issue so severe that castration was the only option, then I would not agree to castrate the dog, and the dog would therefore remain homeless.

I DO agree that dogs need discipline ... not physical painful discipline of course, but Cesar-type discipline of calm assertive energy ... AND lots of love, attention, exercise, good food etc. etc. Firm but fair discipline results in a healthy dog ... (and incidentally, a healthy child, although I know you don't want to compare dogs and children :smt002 ).

No, I most certainly do not disagree with breeder or rescue centre contracts. I merely dislike being told by a breeder or a rescue centre that I MUST chop bits off my future dog whether or not it is necessary, and I MUST follow, or not follow, a particular training regieme. Now, no breeding without health checks is of course an excellent clause to have in a contract, and if there is a fault in the dog, such as poor hips, soft ear, whatever is considered a fault for that breed, then yes, no breeding should be contracted upon. I'm not totally unreasonable !!

I was not comparing dogs to children, just merely presenting an analogy to try and show how and why I am so averse to chopping dogs goolies off for no good reason! Now, here is one thing we DO agree upon : children are DEFINITELY not human until, IMO, they reach at least 20 !! Give me dogs any day. As difficult as Hal was, he was a million light years away from being a fraction as difficult as my daughter, now aged nearly 21 ! But I digress. (As far as men having the snip goes, I have no feelings on the matter ... that is their personal choice. But a poor rescued dog has no choice, he has to go with the flow !)

IF I eventually take on this or any other rescue, or any dog at all for that matter, I may or may not breed from him. He would have to have all the usual health checks - hips, eyes, etc. etc. and a host of other considerations made etc.

Regarding the assessment of a rescue centre of a particular dog, of course I would listen to them regarding all aspects of the dog ... his health, his background, his diet, his temperament, why he had been rehomed, etc. etc. What an arrogant a**e I would be if I took no notice of what they said. However, this is a far cry from slavishly following what they say is right for the dog in terms of castration and training methods.

I am an intelligent, grown woman with 40 years experience of owning and living with dogs. I will form my own opinion about whether or not a dog should undergo an operation involving a general anaesthetic, and what training method I will use, if any, with the dog. This is not arrogance, or being a know-all, it is common sense.

No, I do not think you are being patronising Spot. You are stating your opinion, a valid opinion, and one to which you are more than entitled. I couldn't agree more about old dogs learning new tricks. Every day I learn something new, have to swallow beliefs I have held for all my life (I have that sort of life, don't ask, you'll wish you had never asked, its that bad! ) I have never claimed to be an expert, indeed, have gone out of my way to state that I am NOT an expert on dogs, nor ever will be if I live to be 100.

But like you, I hold firm beliefs too, and certainly in the case of Hal, CM's calm assertive energy worked a treat, so did the eh noise, the tsst, the not saying his name when rebuking him, I never had to pin him down so I have no experience of that, but I nudged him many times with the flat of my hand on his shoulder when he was rumbling about something, and the effect was instant. Walking to heel, even off lead, was magically achieved, recall whereas not instant, did happen within 2 minutes instead of about 5, and although a bit meandery, was pretty good.

CM's methods work brilliantly on my daughter's stroppy cat as well !!

Hi Moonstone: thanks for your nice remarks about Hal, much appreciated! I had forgotten that you own similar guys to Hal ... they sound immaculately well behaved compared to him, God rest his naughty soul !!

We are talking about wolves, because it is extremely relevant to any thread about CM. He treats dogs as pack animals, as wolves, because that is what they are, domesticated wolves. His rehabilitation methods are based around the pack. Were you at the Northern Inuit meet in Essex last year when Shaun Ellis, the Wolf Man, came to lecture us? It was absolutely fascinating. Those two together would be "awesome" to use one of CM's less attractive phrases!

And yes, I know he is an advocate of castration, and i am surprised at him - it's one of the few things I don't like about him.

I know of an alpha female who "rolls" dogs over ... her owners are in the process of trying to stop her using calm assertive energy

colliemad said:

These days if a rottie walked down the street and farted there would be a swat team out to shoot it cos it was acting aggressively

Spot said:

"See thats where we were going wrong! Oprah is never wrong - ever! and she says CM is god so he must be!"

You're being a bit harsh maybe? Don't you think KianaKrazy was speaking tongue in cheek about Oprah?

Maybe I'm being naive, but I think she was treated a bit harshly. She sounds like english isn't her first language? I don't think she's a troll, colliemad (naivety aside !)

Speak to your families, ask them about how many packs of dogs went out attacking people and children. Dogs were treated like dogs (I dont mean chucked out each day) they were not human baby extensions. I am around the same age as you, my parents are always commenting on how dogs never behaved like they do now. My grandmother had an Airedale and a Bull terrier (English) they used to be on the prowl all the time, they never attacked people, they never got all these illnesses we see now, they were fed on left overs and bread, but lived into their teens without any difficulty. Even the stray dog problem was nothing like it is now, even with all the random breeding that must of gone on.

Proof is everywhere Colliemad. A search on any and every search engine will fill your screen with attacks all across the world. Its not all "hype" its the truth, whether stories are exaggerated or not, the fact remains, the dogs attack.