thanks Archer, just wondered how two very different shapes managed to compete at this level.. surprised they can deviate so far. just wondered how far it was down to the judge i suppose.. it's not that i don't like the German type, it's just that they just look unusual as i'm not used to seeing them..

Not wanting to turn this into a gsd debate but the breed standard also states that the back between the withers and the croup should be straight. That dog did not have a straight back so clearly was against the UK standard!
Becky

See this is the point I was trying to make last time this debate came up, the slope of the croup e.t.c is one thing, a roached back is another, they should have a straight topline, sloping or not it should never be roached. JMO.

Now back on topic, I still liked the Beagle!

sorry! i was genuinely curious regarding the standard description..

yep.. i liked the beagle too!

Quite liked the wheaten although was surprised that such a heavily trimmed one got through in the UK lol!
Becky

On the GSD thing - I grew up with Alsations and today's German Sloping Dogs are barely recognisable as the same breed, either in looks or in temperament. Their movement looks crippled and reminds me of Groucho Marx without the cigar. Just my opinion!

The BIS line-up was very impressive. As I said earlier in the thread, I loved the Sammy and the Giant Schnauzer. The Beagle and the Chi were great as well. I loved the Shiba on the move, but didn't like its narrow head and it was a little too insubstantial for my taste. Well done to Kevin on his BIS (At last!)

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/487
The GSD which won in 1965 looks better to me
Becky

Slightly long in comparison to height; of powerful, well muscled build with weather-resistant coat. Relation between height, length, position and structure of fore and hindquarters (angulation) producing far-reaching, enduring gait. Clear definition of masculinity and femininity essential, and working ability never sacrificed for mere beauty.

Characteristics
Versatile working dog, balanced and free from exaggeration. Attentive, alert, resilient and tireless with keen scenting ability.

Temperament
Steady of nerve, loyal, self-assured, courageous and tractable. Never nervous, over-aggressive or shy.

Head and Skull
Proportionate in size to body, never coarse, too fine or long. Clean cut; fairly broad between ears. Forehead slightly domed; little or no trace of central furrow. Cheeks forming softly rounded curve, never protruding. Skull from ears to bridge of nose tapering gradually and evenly, blending without too pronounced stop into wedge-shaped powerful muzzle. Skull approximately 50 per cent of overall length of head. Width of skull corresponding approximately to length, in males slightly greater, in females slightly less. Muzzle strong, lips firm, clean and closing tightly. Top of muzzle straight, almost parallel to forehead. Short, blunt, weak, pointed, overlong muzzle undesirable.

Eyes
Medium-sized, almond-shaped, never protruding. Dark brown preferred, lighter shade permissible, provided expression good and general harmony of head not destroyed. Expression lively, intelligent and self-assured.

Ears
Medium-sized, firm in texture, broad at base, set high, carried erect, almost parallel, never pulled inwards or tipped, tapering to a point, open at front. Never hanging. Folding back during movement permissible.

Mouth
Jaws strongly developed. With a perfect, regular and complete scissor bite, i.e. upper teeth closely overlapping lower teeth and set square to the jaws. Teeth healthy and strong. Full dentition desirable.

Neck
Fairly long, strong, with well developed muscles, free from throatiness. Carried at 45 degrees angle to horizontal, raised when excited, lowered at fast trot.

Forequarters
Shoulder blades long, set obliquely (45 degrees) laid flat to body. Upper arm strong, well muscled, joining shoulder blade at approximately 90 degrees. Forelegs straight from pasterns to elbows viewed from any angle, bone oval rather than round. Pasterns firm, supple and slightly angulated. Elbows neither tucked in nor turned out. Length of foreleg exceeding depth of chest.

Body
Length measured from point of breast bone to rear edge of pelvis, exceeding height at withers. Correct ratio 10 to 9 or 8 and a half. Undersized dogs, stunted growth, high-legged dogs, those too heavy or too light in build, over-loaded fronts, too short overall appearance, any feature detracting from reach or endurance of gait, undesirable. Chest deep (45-48 per cent) of height at shoulder, not too broad, brisket long, well developed. Ribs well formed and long; neither barrel-shaped nor too flat; allowing free movement of elbows when gaiting. Relatively short loin. Belly firm, only slightly drawn up. Back between withers and croup, straight, strongly developed, not too long. Overall length achieved by correct angle of well laid shoulders, correct length of croup and hindquarters. Withers long, of good height and well defined, joining back in a smooth line without disrupting flowing topline, slightly sloping from front to back. Weak, soft and roach backs undesirable and should be rejected. Loin broad, strong, well muscled. Croup long, gently curving downwards to tail without disrupting flowing topline. Short, steep or flat croups undesirable.

Hindquarters
Overall strong, broad and well muscled, enabling effortless forward propulsion of whole body. Upper thighbone, viewed from side, sloping to slightly longer lower thighbone. Hind angulation sufficient if imaginary line dropped from point of buttocks cuts through lower thigh just in front of hock, continuing down slightly in front of hindfeet. Angulations corresponding approximately with front angulation, without over-angulation, hock strong. Any tendency towards over-angulation of hindquarters reduces firmness and endurance.

Feet
Rounded toes well closed and arched. Pads well cushioned and durable. Nails short, strong and dark in colour. Dewclaws removed from hindlegs.

Tail
Bushy-haired, reaches at least to hock – ideal length reaching to middle of metatarsus. At rest tail hangs in slight sabre-like curve; when moving raised and curve increased, ideally never above level of back. Short, rolled, curled, generally carried badly or stumpy from birth, undesirable.

Gait/Movement
Sequence of step follows diagonal pattern, moving foreleg and opposite hindleg forward simultaneously; hindfoot thrust forward to midpoint of body and having equally long reach with forefeet without any noticeable change in backline.

Coat
Outer coat consisting of straight, hard, close-lying hair as dense as possible; thick undercoat. Hair on head, ears, front of legs, paws and toes short; on back, longer and thicker; in some males forming slight ruff. Hair longer on back of legs as far down as pasterns and stifles and forming fairly thick trousers on hindquarters. No hard and fast rule for length of hair; mole-type coats undesirable.

Colour
Black or black saddle with tan, or gold to light grey markings. All black, all grey, with lighter or brown markings referred to as Sables. Nose black. Light markings on chest or very pale colour on inside of legs permissible but undesirable, as are whitish nails, red-tipped tails or wishy-washy faded colours defined as lacking in pigmentation. Blues, livers, albinos, whites (i.e. almost pure white dogs with black noses) and near whites highly undesirable. Undercoat, except in all black dogs, usually grey or fawn. Colour in itself is of secondary importance having no effect on character or fitness for work. Final colour of a young dog only ascertained when outer coat has developed.

Size
Ideal height (from withers and just touching elbows): dogs: 63 cms (25 ins); bitches: 58 cms (23 ins). 2.5 cms (1 in) either above or below ideal permissible.

Faults
Any departure from the foregoing points should be considered a fault and the seriousness with which the fault should be regarded should be in exact proportion to its degree and its effect upon the health and welfare of the dog.

Note
Male animals should have two apparently normal testicles fully descended into the scrotum.



Sorry...don't disbelieve you but I cannot see the point where it says the dog should have the straight back from withers to croup...pls point it out in the abobe KC standard

The only two that stood out for me was the Schnauzer and the Samoyed, When they moved round the ring they owned it, The movement and profile of those dogs were very good. Hats off to the handlers they got the best out of those dogs both in the Group and Best in show line up. I hoped that one of them would win, it was a toss up but i think that the judge got it right this time. Well done to the both of them.

http://www.gsdleague.co.uk/Zamp.jpg

I think one proplem is understanding a 'roach' back.The dog above 'Zamp' slopes from the withers...a roach would rise from the withers and then slope.
There will always be a split in the 2 types....a difference in interpretation.It happens in many breeds to some degree....I have owned both english and germanic gsd...and know from experience which I would choose to work ...the difference in working ability in my experience was phenominal.