Sounds like CM got it wrong then. Wish I had seen this programme for myself, but I believe you Wys. I guess no-one can get it right all of the time. But when Tai gives paw to the landlord of our pub for his doggie chew, there is no way he is displaying anything other than a trick that has been taught him (misguidedly in my opinion). The "spoiled brat" type strike that he used to do to me, was far away from this, and was potentially very dangerous. His claws are lethal !

Yes, we mustn't turn this into yet another anti CM rant !

Wys said : Thanks for taking the time to type about the chickens It can be done in other ways ( I trained my BSD who has a high prey drive to not chase animals where I sometimes walk, in the New forest; this is usually donkeys, horses, birds plus other animals such as riders and joggers ). She used to take off after deer but one call and she'd return - I didn't use CM techniques though A friend of mine who is a very good behaviourist has done it via the desentisiting route also, which does take time but worked very well for her client and dog.

Yup, there certainly always is more than one way to skin a cat. The desensitising route works, but so slowly that certainly a wolfy type breed would get bored very quickly. Hal was supremely intelligent, he absolutely defo could read your mind and knew in advance what route you had planned to go on. He would then work out, if it was "past the chickens" route exactly what method of attack he was going to use !

With him, whatever type of training you did, it had to be pretty instantaneous, there was no time to mess about. Apart from anything else, I am self-employed, time's money, I haven't got time to mess about either, and in addition to that, having killed 5 chickens knives were beginning to be sharpened in the village, understandably, for Hal !! We live in a very rural community, and any dog who even had the potential to worry livestock is a dog who is not going to survive for very long. Drastic measures were called for. I would never never do anything cruel to my dog to achieve an end though, so it had to be something that sat comfortably with me. I liked what I saw on the Dog Whisperer, I watched many episodes, bought his first book, and had me a well-ish behaved wolf for the first time in 9 years !

I describe it as "learning to speak Wolf". At last, I could properly "talk" to Hal, and now to Tai. It's great, and I'll take a lot of persuading to accept that I am cruel !! Maybe this wouldn't work for all dogs, but I personally don't believe it, but I am more than prepared to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. Everyone knows their dogs best.

So no more talk of CM then, but back to the good old title of Being Alpha !!

The stats are looking good too !

Wys
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Don't you dare turn my lovely, nice friendly debated thread into a CM thread!! Grrrrrrrr ;op

[QUOTE=Gnasher;1666418]Wys said : Thanks for taking the time to type about the chickens It can be done in other ways ( I trained my BSD who has a high prey drive to not chase animals where I sometimes walk, in the New forest; this is usually donkeys, horses, birds plus other animals such as riders and joggers ). She used to take off after deer but one call and she'd return - I didn't use CM techniques though A friend of mine who is a very good behaviourist has done it via the desentisiting route also, which does take time but worked very well for her client and dog.

I should add that with my dog I used toy training to get a good chase recall and that the desensitising was done often off lead as part of normal puppy training really. I did have to put special effort in for bikes as she got very excited about them, I used a mix of DS and clicker for that. She will now Sit when bikes/horses/joggers etc come by but I have to be careful as once she Sat when a horse was very excited and it nearly trod on her so I take care still, you never know what animals will do (and I include joggers and bike riders in that ).

I was thinking about this a bit and (hope you don't mind me saying) but wasn't it possible to have Hal on a lead if he'd killed chickens? Not all the time obviously. Or was there some problem with fencing or him digging/jumping/trying to get to them on a daily basis when at home due to predatory drive? Just wondering really why he actually needed to be trained as presumably the chickens were in the neighbours' garden?

If for instance neighbour had chickens (not very usual around here as I live in a town) then I'd simply put my dog n lead. However, the forest is very different as there are animals everywhere, so it was my priority to train for that particular situation so my dog can be off lead and we can get maximum enjoyment with minimum stress.

I bet, yes. Also with some dogs who are driven to chase, for example, they are there one second and gone the next. I think it would be unusual for an untrained dog to stay to listen to the owner in such circumstances because usually they are just gone in a flash, often before the owner notices the deer/chase animal, unless of course they are on lead which is different...

When this happens they very often can't even hear the owner at all. Using reward methods I got my girl returning to me like a swallow in flight in a wonderful curve after she'd actually got well into her stride. It makes me very proud and the particular time I'm thinking of I'd have loved to have videoed.

I should probably mention that I voted for "other" but obviously I'm not an alpha supporter, I think there were a few posters who did that.

I think this has almost been run dry now!

Wys
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No worries Pidge, we're not going there, you can breathe a sigh of relief

Wys
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[QUOTE=Wysiwyg;1666628] that's a good point Wys about the chickens and putting the dog on a lead. The problem is they were escaping from their owners garden out onto the set-aside, which is a public right of way. In addition, the damn stupid birds used to hide under the hedge in the long grass, so you didn't know they were there ! You would come round the corner, look around, see there were no chickens, and carry on. I don't like to have my dogs on leads. IMO leads cause trouble, more dog fights occur when dogs are on leads than at any other time, so because my dogs are always well socialised, they are always off lead. Of course around livestock I always put Hal, and now Tai, on the lead, unless we are on the bikes and then we don't need to because we just pedal as hard as we can and he follows.

So, we would be just walking past where the chickens live when wham !! They would all start flapping and squawking and carrying on just as we past them - usually right under Hal's nose ! Well, what was a wolf to do ? Eat them of course !! It really wasn't altogether our fault, after all, a passing fox would get them just the same. However, after the 5th death, which coincided with our watching the Dog Whisperer, we decided to do something about it once and for all. Seriously, it's just not on, even though the chickens shouldn't have been out on the set aside.

Hal and Tai were and are absolutely brill with horses. I used to take Hal out riding with me round the set aside. I don't have a horse any more, following an accident during which she was killed, but when I do get another one, Tai will definitely come out with me. He adores horses, and insists on weaving in and out of their back legs, which is really not a good idea. He thinks he is a dalmatian I think !!

Tai does that swallow curve !! I call it his Monty's left hook ! It's so exhilerating, isn't it, when they are well into chasing a deer, but one whistle, and round they come. After Shallow Hal, who certainly would not have been this good, even after he had been CM'd, it still blows my mind that I have this level of control, and look nervously around in case there is some magical 3rd person behind me calling the shots !!

Hi Pidge : have you noticed the stats : the no's have the yes's snapping on their heels, with the "others" running a poor third !!

Going to the pub now ... yipee !!!

Reading the bit with the chickens makes me think you must have had some pretty good control over him before you were able to get in there offlead with the chickens
(not saying its bad - its great you and he had that level of control)
I have only once had Mia in any kind of prey situation - I was in a field with 3 walls and 2 electric fences between us and a feild of about 200 sheep
Soon as she got a wiff she was off

Her recal was pretty shocking - hence why I was trying to practise in an enclosed field!! Thankfully her collie overroad her wanting to kill and she just bunched them all up in one corner of the field then came zooming right back (v happy with herself I might add) - thankfully well before lambing time and no farmers near - I was soooo scared

No way on earth I could have used ANY correction or positive methods in that case - by the time you would have got 1 PSSSSTT out she would have been too far away to hear - and you wouldnt have been able to catch her to do the hand bitey thing

Learnt my lesson now - working on recal (and I have to say although people talk about totaly obedient collies they obviously have never had to deal with the 'collie answerphone' - which is what me n my friends call our young in training collie types - dog runs off, you call it back - nothing, again, a flick of the ear, you tell it 'down' nothing, then as soon as it has reached the thing it was going to look at it comes back full pelt and then does all the other commands you yelled - like it was lining them all up in its wee head 'got to chase rabbit, then come back, then lie down, then sit')
and Mia is not offlead unless I know 100% what is up ahead (for the next few miles - she is fast and small and can fit in the smallest gap in a fence)

You should get together with my mother.....and everyone who was telling her that she would get all the results she wanted clicker training as her 12 week BC pup ran after the cars at the APDT workshop!

His herding instinct takes over from everything! He loves playing with toys - on his own and usually as far away from you as he can get!
Aren't BCs great!