This example shows a very poor understanding of biology.

From wiki

Breeding, keeping or maintaining hybrids as pets is a very bad idea
Leerburg.com has this old list.

9/81 - Wayne, Michigan - Two-year-old Eric Turner killed by "Mickey" when he wandered within range of his chain.

10/83 - Malad, Idaho - Three year-old David Hammer was killed by one of his family's three pet hybrid wolves when the "boy started to run and the wolf chased him and bit him in the neck and back of the head area."

10/85 - Los Angeles, California - Two-year-old Christopher Nimitz was grabbed and had his arm ripped off by the family's pet wolves when he put his hand through the chain-link fencing of their pen.

3/86 - Anchorage, Alaska - Nicola Martin, 2 years old, was killed while playing in a yard near a chained wolf hybrid.

8/86 - Forest City, North Carolina - four-year-old Brandon Joel Ingle killed by the family's pet hybrid.

8/86 - Fergus Falls, Minnesota - Seventeen -month-old Tyler Strauch' s arm was bitten off by his father's pet hybrid when the hybrid grabbed him as the child played near the hybrid's pen.

8/88 - Washesha, Wisconsin - Eight-year-old David Hoppe pulled off his bike and dragged into a lake by a friend's hybrid; hospitalized with multiple soft tissue injuries.

8/88 - Ft. Walton Beach, Florida - Four-year-old Nathan Carpenter killed by a neighbor's recently acquired hybrid that had been featured as "pet of the week" at the shelter from which it was adopted; Panhandle Area Welfare Society (PAWS) paid a $425,000 settlement to the boy's family.

2/89 - Venice, Florida - Three-year-old Lauren Verner attacked by loose hybrid, receives over 100 stitches.

3/89 - Ishpeming, Michigan - Five-year-old Angie Nickerson was killed by a relative's loose pet hybrid as she walked home from the bus stop. The animal had been a stray that was adopted out by a local humane society and only had been with the family a short time.

3/89 - Big Lake, Minn. Alyshia Ann Berczyk, 3 yrs old, killed by a pet wolf.

5/89 - Staten Island, New York - Two-year-old Timothy Bajinski attacked by his mother's hybrid who "freaked out". Child in critical condition, required extensive reconstructive surgery to face and head.

6/89 - Kenyon, Minnesota - Five-year-old Peter Lernke attacked after wandering into yard of chained wolf; surgery required to remove 12 inches of the child's small intestine and 1/2 of his colon.

8/89 - Regina, Saskatchewan ten-year-old Clinton Goodwell loses arm after being bitten by wolves at Moose Jaw Wild Animal Park

3/90 - Otisville, Michigan - Two-year-old Tanya Elliot killed when she played within reach of a friend's chained hybrid.

4/90 - Anchorage, Alaska - Four-week-old Paul David Mahler is killed by "Kessy," a hybrid, when the child's mother held the infant out to the animal and the hybrid grabbed the child by the head.

5/90 - Denver, Colorado - Six-year-old Lewis Trujillo was bitten 15 times on his legs and groin by a loose hybrid.

8/90 - Phoenix, Arizona-Two-year-old Belinda Jean Bennett bitten by her uncle's hybrid, received over 500 stitches to repair wounds.

9/90 - East Orange, New Jersey. Two Month and 3 Day Old Curtis James Hawkins killed and partially consumed by the family's wolf hybrid while sleeping in his crib.

10/90 - Tabor, South Dakota - Four-year-old Crystal Tipton received extensive lacerations to head, neck, arm, stomach and leg when she got too close to some penned hybrids.

1/90 - Mead, Washington - Four-year-old Melonie Honodel received 30-40 puncture wounds from a friend's hybrid that broke loose from its chain and came after a group of children in a yard, biting and shaking the child until her mother beat it off.

5/91 - Bellingham, Washington - Eighteen-month-old Blake Barber has his arm bitten off after reaching through a fence to pet a hybrid owned by his father.

8/91 - Lolo, Montana - Three-year-old Elaine Sandvig had her arm torn off after reaching into a kennel to pet her grandfather's hybrid.

9/91 - Elk, Washington - Melonie Honodel, now five-years-old, sustained a second hybrid attack requiring 80 stitches to close deep head and face lacerations, and nearly lost an eye when she hugged a friend's "friendly" hybrid while she was visiting the home with her mother.

1/92 - Phoenix, Arizona - Five-year-old Quantee Walker was seriously injured when his family's "friendly" hybrid, "Wolfie", dragged him around the yard by his head “like a rag doll.”

1/92 - Greentown, Indiana - Seven-year-old Devin Dewitt required surgery to repair deep lacerations to his arms, upper chest and face after two of the family's wellcared-for hybrids grabbed his hand and arm as he petted them and then attempted to pull him through the chain-link fencing of their 8' high enclosure.

6/92 - Saginaw, Ml. Two-year-old had part of a finger bitten off after approaching an unprotected wolf enclosure at a zoo and reaching through the fence.

10/93 - Sante Fe, New Mexico - Twelve-year-old Josh Garner died from severe injuries inflicted by his neighbor's "friendly" wolf hybrid, Kodiak.

10/93 -Jamaica, Vermont - Four-year-old Brandon Pike hospitalized in serious condition with bites to his face, spinal column and testicles after being attacked by a four-year-old wolf hybrid.

10/93 - Tucson, Arizona - Three-year-old Jasmine Peterson was critically wounded by a wolf hybrid and its shepherd companion when she fell off a cinder block wall into their yard.

12/93 - Townsend, Vermont - A three-year-old child was killed when a hybrid with new puppies broke out of her pen and attacked the child.

2/94 - Cedar Rapids, Iowa - Four children attacked, three of them seriously wounded, when a hybrid escaped his pen and traveled to a local school playground during a recess period.

3/94 - Cumming, Georgia - Eight-year -old Matthew Slalom was revived by his mom's CPR after receiving massive wounds to the head, neck, and chest when his neighbor's leashed "friendly" hybrid pulled away from his owner while she was chatting with the kids in her yard.

12/94 - Manitowoc, Wisconsin - Two-and-a-half-year-old Jared Mars lost most of his right arm when he reached through the fence of a zoo enclosure to pet a wolf.

1/95 - Black Hawk, South Dakota - Two--year-old Russell Evans was killed when he entered a neighbor's fenced yard containing a chained wolf hybrid.

3/95 - Buffalo Creek, Colorado - Four-year-old Brian Oudemolen received deep cuts on his face and head requiring plastic surgery when a friend's hybrid suddenly attacked the child as he ran and played while he and his mom, the hybrid's owner, and the loose hybrid rambled across a field together.

5/95 - Deland, Florida -James Termerer, 21 months-old suffered massive wounds to his face and neck when a "friendly" wolf/malamute attacked him The owner insisted the animal was just "trying to remove a red-hooded shirt the child was wearing" and "had an affinity for the color red."

9/95 - Lynchburg, Virginia - Derrick Quarles, age seven years suffered severe cuts on his throat, back and legs when the neighbor's hybrids grabbed his jacket through the fence of their backyard enclosure, pulled him into the pen, tore his clothes off and attacked him.

12/95- Chiloquin, Oregon - Three year-old Brian Boss was attacked and dragged out of his yard by a loose hybrid. The child received 39 puncture wounds and a punctured lung and required three hours of surgery to repair the wounds in his chest, abdomen and back.

12/95 - Howell, Michigan - Two year-old Jessie Langley was nearly asphyxiated when her family's "friendly" hybrid crushed her chest while she was sleeping in her bed room.

7/96 - Kalispell, Montana - Nathan Weasetail, age eight years, received severe bites to his legs, buttocks, arms, scalp requiring over 300 stitches after he entered an enclosure containing three wolves that were used for photographic purposes.

10/96 - Rothbury, Michigan - A 12 year-old girl waiting for a school bus was attacked and dragged by a neighbor's hybrid that broke his chain She sustained severe bites all over her body especially her arms requiring seven hours of surgery.

Humm.....surely that takes us to the nature/nurture debate.....(just to keep us going)

I do not think anyone is suggesting it is a good idea to keep wolf hybrids.

However - people have had experience with these animals.

I have had debates on here and tried to explain the behaviour of my feral dog. It is almost impossible for people to understand what he is like to live with (maybe its me explaining it wrong). After 8 years of him being here it is still an honour when he decides that you can touch him!

Good question and I'm not sure what constitutes an actual "pack". Now we know that wolves live in family groups like human parents with their offspring, (which I would term a family group rather than a pack) I'd tend to think of the term as meaning a hierarchical structure perhaps? or perhaps not, I'm just putting that idea out

I don't see "only" dogs attempting to join a family group and all that would involve as evidence of a "pack" in that sense, (IMO) because any group of animals could be territorial for example...it's early and I'm not sure I'm making sense though

Wys
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It may be that if you put in "dominance" and their names into the search engine you may come up with something; I can't think of the study I've just read which alluded to the dog packs although I've probably got it here with me in my study somewhere and if I find it I will mention it.

The forthcoming study is entitled (as far as I know) "Dominance in domestic dogs: useful construct or bad habit?" by R Casey, J Bradshaw and (think it's E) Blackwell

Wys
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Yes, I agee; Gnasher you have firm views and are very good at explaining
I should say that I do respect your views and your right to them, even if I disagree with them

I think that was the Miklosi, et al study entitled "A simple reason for a big difference: Wolves do not look back at humans but Dogs Do" ?

Wys
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I understand the difference is also genetic

Wys
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John Fisher who used to use pack theory a lot as we know, before he altered his opinions, felt that it could cause depresssion in some dogs due to, for example, the dog being ignored except when the owner wanted to interact. He noted this in one Bernese Mountain dog who when it was counted, rarely actually interacted with his owneras she felt that it was wrong, she was alpha. I am sure Gnasher would agree that's not a good way to use pack theory!

But also there is the view that because the application of pack theory often sets routine, perhaps "boundaries", and clear guidance in some way, whereas before there was none, it can "work" - but this is because of the routine, etc and not due to hierarchy which is the important point

There is also the extreme pack view which causes really horrible training to be done with dogs, but I'm sure none of us are referring to that kind of thing. Yuk.

I used to (kind of) practice pack theory - I used to not let my dogs on furniture and eat before them. It lasted a few weeks and then I stopped and had exactly the same dogs as before, and for the rest of their lives

Wys
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Doesn't a family group have a natural heirarchy?

I cannot see why gaurding a territory as a group does not consitute a 'pack' situation? Any group of animals as a group guarding a territory from others of the same species would be classified as a *whatever* of those animals (pride/herd etc)
Pack is just a word used to classify a group of dogs.

Hence me coming back to the fact that observations made in any of these situations - wild/feral/domestic is relevent - but only when applied to *that* situation. Observing wild wolves will give you insight into thier behaviour, observing domestic dogs will give you insight into their behaviour.

One of the reasons dogs have become so domseticated is their ability to adapt - surely we can adapt our training methods in such a way as to treat them as dogs in the situation they live in and not wolves?