And this one....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yj7X2...eature=related

Definately not a tickle!!

Okay I have tried to keep out of this thread, do have one previous post on here but tried to address ATD's question. In regards to an electric pulsations being given to deter dogs for what ever reason is not right in my book.
You could show we a thousand studies to show they do not hurt an animal when used and are not inhumane, but I will still not use them.
A study is only as good as the people behind it and some have agenda's ie they go in with the idea they want to prove they are okay to use, they will more than likely come out with that result.
I do not need to see studies on it, I do not think they should be used as a deterrent for barking or fencing. Do they think it is good to keep kids in the back yard?? No If a child won't stop crying can you use it?? No surely a child would learn getting a painful stimulus when it does a specific thing but are you going to damage that child? yes.
Some dogs may learn but others may get confused by the pain an become aggressive it has been documented.
If you are not willing to use it on yourself or some one your love dont put it on an animal that means something to you.

Yes, they are very good trainers
Yes, it would be hard unless you got one of the clickers that you can use under the foot, and even then...

The point of clicker training is that the dog knows it's having clicker fun, and wants to earn that click from the owner/trainer

Wys
x

Ooowch! and that's actually a pet fence system.
Not very nice.

Wys
x

Yup and at a run the shock didnt stop him going through the fence - so it wouldnt stop a dog in full flight

I know of someone who tried one of these because her dog kept getting out of her very large garden and onto the road. The dog would probably say it wasn't a just a tickle because he now won't go out in the garden by himself and repeatedly wees in the house even though the fence is permanently switched off.

Thanks for that, we are now looking at 'screen' fencing
ATD x

Hey - don't keep apologising for disagreeing. There would be something very weird (and discussion would be somewhat pointless) if we all had the same experiences

Yes, this advise was given to me and yes I will be happy to explain why.

First the background as to why this line of reasoning came up:

We were talking about the use of negative markers and Ben (Pam), pointed out that Mia gets stressed when she doesn't succeed first time during training. We had a similar problem with Beanie. Whereas some dogs get stressed and 'shut down' when a negative marker is used, this happens to our dogs simply because they don't get their treat first time!

For differing reasons, our dogs were impatient and this was holding back training. Use of negative markers were out of the question. Now I personally don't feel the need to use them in most situations, but sometimes they can be very useful. So it's helpful to me to think about how they might be used successfully if needed.

One line of reasoning is to consider whether it might help if the marker isn't associated with the handler. Why do I think this is worth perusing, well...

When we first started agility Beanie wasn't interested in toys. Carol (our agility teacher) strongly advised us to get her interested - she said that dogs that were toy motivated learned faster and did better in agility. For us this certainly proved to be true. When we used treats (which Beanie adores) she was SO focused on them that it distracted her from the task in hand. She knew that she had to please me to get the treat, but was so desperate that too much of her attention was on me and not enough on figuring out what she was supposed to be doing.

When we got her interested in a ball she was very focused on the task in hand. The ball was in fact a kind of 'marker' (one that was thrown or placed a distance away from me) - when she got the ball a treat would soon follow. This resulted in her being less focused on me and the treats. She learned faster and was therefore less stressed and frustrated. It really did work wonders.

Something similar would happen when clicker training. The clicker magnified her love of treats by 1000! She would die to hear that click. She'd try so hard that her brain would short-circuit - although the clicker was a tremendous motivator it was also a distraction. At a clicker training workshop we were advised not to keep the treats on our person and swap the tasty treats for kibble. It helped a little. At another we were told to keep the clicker behind our back. That worked instantly to a degree and things continued to improve over time. I didn't understand why at the time. Later, we had one to one lessons with a clicker trainer who was also a behaviorist. She explained that whilst Beanie was very intelligent and patient when it came to learning from her environment, it all went pear shaped when a trainer was involved. When she was aware that it was the trainer that decided when she got the click she focused on them almost exclusively. Because she wasn't focusing on what she was supposed to be doing she didn't get the click and it all became stressful and frustrating for her. And this, she explained, was why people often tell you to hide the clicker behind your back or subtly concealed in your hand.

If you watch a dog (my dog at least) when it's not interacting with a human it's very clear that it has a tremendous ability to learn from both positive and negative outcomes. It's patient and doesn't get stressed easily. A reasonable goal might therefore be to harness that learning ability and not do anything to short-circuit it. If we're going to use markers in a kind of "hot" and "cold" way to help the dog to learn then it could well be more 'natural' for the dog if the marker itself seems to come from the environment rather than from us. It certainly works that way with positive markers for mine - I haven't yet tried negative markers. But my thinking is that it could work better if it isn't associated with the handler. Different reasons that with the positive marker though. And of course, the added benefit is that if the dog associates me with the marker he/she might just decide that he/she doesn't need to bother if I'm not there!!!!

And it's no problem pointing out that this is not the norm if that's what you believe to be the case - stop apologising. You have every right to express your opinions whether I agree with them or not!

Please ignore the norty boys standing on the table, but this trellis is what I put up to keep the boys off my garden. I would prefer not to have it there, but it doesn't look too bad. They have plenty of space round the side of the house to bounce around without wrecking my garden, which yes, I am a bit precious about . They get loads of free running exercise so I don't feel too guilty about it.

Thanks for explaining and I can see why in your situation hiding the clicker may have helped It's important to be flexible and try things out sometimes.

When clicker training, some dogs do get very focussed on the owners, and sometimes it's due to (for example) the owner actually standing in a non relaxed way - as if they are about to give a cue! I see this a lot, and often once they've relaxed, the dog feels able to offer behaviours more.
I don't think this was the case in your scenario though

Generally people aren't told to hide the clicker (and this was what i meant really - it's not the norm in clicker training - unless you are checking the dog is not seeing it as a bribe, or unless the clicker needs to be muffled a bit). It can be good to ensure the clicker is not being a bribe for training in the way that food can be if it's not correctly used (and yes, puttingthe food away is a good thing to do, I often put mine on a table or have even been known to have it in another room!).

With some dogs it's also good to let them work through the frustration of clicker training but it does depend. Often it's helpful to teach something like a moving away trick (spin for example) so the dog realises that it's not always total owner focus that brings rewards, but actually "doing something" that gets the rewards. Always tricky as of course, owner focus is also very important! JMO though

Happy clicker training!
......

Although I'm quite outspoken in some ways, I also hate disagreeing with people so I tend to apologise sometimes esp. if I feel I'm disagreeing with the same person more than once

Wys
x