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Jet&Copper
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13-04-2012, 11:58 AM
Originally Posted by Ben Mcfuzzylugs View Post
Plenty of people dont need them
I use it kinda more in clicker training cos I am way more vocal than you are supposed to be - giving them loads of feedback
'thats it, clever dogs, nearly there, oh you are so smart' when they are getting close to the click
and a quiet 'no' and I move away for a sec when the choice - for what I am looking for at the time - is wrong
Its not a 'punishment' because say for example I want the right paw on something and they give the left
'no' makes them try something different but dosent make the left paw less likely in the future - if that makes sense
Ooooh that's really interesting - I don't tend to say much at all if I have a clicker, perhaps I should start! Even without a clicker actually, I just say "good" and reward, but don't really give feedback either way "en route....."

I actually find that talking makes them more likely to just stop what they were doing at look at me instead?
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smokeybear
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13-04-2012, 12:10 PM
Originally Posted by Jet&Copper View Post
Ooooh that's really interesting - I don't tend to say much at all if I have a clicker, perhaps I should start! Even without a clicker actually, I just say "good" and reward, but don't really give feedback either way "en route....."

I actually find that talking makes them more likely to just stop what they were doing at look at me instead?
It depends on your style and the individual dog and your ethos.

Nina Bondarenko for example uses a "bridge" or "keep going" marker using ex ex ex ex EXCELLENT!

I sometimes use it in a particular context (mine is clever).

So it is not only a variance in methods but what your dog copes with.

My dogs generally find verbals in most contexts as an interruption to their concentration. This is because their MAIN keep going cue is of course, SILENCE!

So basically whether or not you use the voice can depend on you, the individual dog, the exercise, the environment etc.

Does that make sense?

As in all things, I think you can give too much and too little feedback whether it is verbal or body language or clicking etc.

This is why, when training or judging others, it can be difficult (unless you know the partnership well) to determine (at first) whether handlers are being helpful or obstructive!
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Ben Mcfuzzylugs
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13-04-2012, 12:11 PM
Originally Posted by Jet&Copper View Post
Ooooh that's really interesting - I don't tend to say much at all if I have a clicker, perhaps I should start! Even without a clicker actually, I just say "good" and reward, but don't really give feedback either way "en route....."

I actually find that talking makes them more likely to just stop what they were doing at look at me instead?
Thats what most people advise - and works really well
I just find it too clinical
For some things I keep quiet but for longer things like heelwork I deff give them lots of feedback

I had been doing it for a bit before I found other people do it and give it fancy names
http://www.caninehorizons.com/Bridge_and_Target.html
I dont totaly use her ideas but thought there were really interesting
Also the dvd's I got from Slyvia Trckmn she talks non stop when training them and sounds so happy and it works for her and her dogs
So I figured I wasnt so mad to do it
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Jet&Copper
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13-04-2012, 12:53 PM
Originally Posted by smokeybear View Post
It depends on your style and the individual dog and your ethos.

Nina Bondarenko for example uses a "bridge" or "keep going" marker using ex ex ex ex EXCELLENT!

I sometimes use it in a particular context (mine is clever).

So it is not only a variance in methods but what your dog copes with.

My dogs generally find verbals in most contexts as an interruption to their concentration. This is because their MAIN keep going cue is of course, SILENCE!

So basically whether or not you use the voice can depend on you, the individual dog, the exercise, the environment etc.

Does that make sense?

As in all things, I think you can give too much and too little feedback whether it is verbal or body language or clicking etc.

This is why, when training or judging others, it can be difficult (unless you know the partnership well) to determine (at first) whether handlers are being helpful or obstructive!
It all makes perfect sense

I tend to just do nothing, until the required behaviour has occured, then mark and reward. I'm sure there are occasions where I do more, like maybe luring? I'm going to put some more thought into that though.

I kind of thought that if you were having to keep the dog going with your voice, you had set the criteria to high to begin with.
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Jet&Copper
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13-04-2012, 12:55 PM
Originally Posted by Ben Mcfuzzylugs View Post
Thats what most people advise - and works really well
I just find it too clinical
For some things I keep quiet but for longer things like heelwork I deff give them lots of feedback

I had been doing it for a bit before I found other people do it and give it fancy names
http://www.caninehorizons.com/Bridge_and_Target.html
I dont totaly use her ideas but thought there were really interesting
Also the dvd's I got from Slyvia Trckmn she talks non stop when training them and sounds so happy and it works for her and her dogs
So I figured I wasnt so mad to do it
I like clinical though, must be the scientist in me!

I don't think you are mad, I have learned so much from you

Kikopup does a lot of talking to!

I do wonder how much of it is really just background noise to the dog though, and it's just us who think we are helping them in any way?
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smokeybear
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13-04-2012, 01:01 PM
Originally Posted by Jet&Copper View Post
I do wonder how much of it is really just background noise to the dog though, and it's just us who think we are helping them in any way?

Hence my previous post, I think we all have different style as an overall umbrella.

For example

Can you imagine me ever saying:

What a clever wevver ickle fur baby?

to one of my dogs!
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Jet&Copper
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13-04-2012, 01:09 PM
Originally Posted by smokeybear View Post
Hence my previous post, I think we all have different style as an overall umbrella.

For example

Can you imagine me ever saying:

What a clever wevver ickle fur baby?

to one of my dogs!
Oh don't lie I know you do!!!
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rune
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13-04-2012, 02:51 PM
Originally Posted by smokeybear View Post
My interruptor is "Excuse ME!"
Mine is 'what do you think you're doing!

Rhetorical question!

rune
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chaospony
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13-04-2012, 02:56 PM
Originally Posted by rune View Post
Mine is 'what do you think you're doing!

Rhetorical question!

rune
That is mine too! lol
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Moobli
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13-04-2012, 03:01 PM
Originally Posted by smokeybear View Post
But it is not the WORD that is the issue. It is the TONE of the voice.

So is NO or WRONG used as a NRM (No reward marker) or an interruptor or as positive punishment (either in and of itself or as a predicator of something else) .............?
Absolutely!

I use No in a "stop what you are doing immediately" type of voice, and "wrong" in a mild tone, as an interrupter.
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