The difference to the dog is the posture and tone that goes with it - hitting in anger carries aggressive posture and tone, [ from the hitter ], including facially usually, but in play the posturing and tone - again very much including facially - is clearly readable to the dog as having no bad intent toward them.

I can roughhouse with my crew, despite them having been previously abused, because I make the intent clear for them, including often me getting on hands and knee`s myself to playbow to instigate the game - they love that, though I suspect that`s because I must look like a right wally to them, they probably think ` good grief, what a plank`

Please don`t ever get a deaf dog then if you think hitting is the `only` way to work with a dog which does`nt, [ or cant], listen

Patch,

That doesn't actually surprise me as that's what I meant in one of my posts, although I didn't explain it very well.

I stated that dogs who are tapped/smacked (whatever you want to call it) may well end up displaying aggressive behaviours because they are sick fed up of being "tapped" on the face.

Bingo, click and treat that handler

Darn it, does that mean all the successful rehab so many of us have done is just luck because we are clearly in your view `way below average handlers` ?

You could`nt be more wrong Nav, many of us have seen the reality and sickeningly so - frightened and often defensively aggressive dogs because of heavy handed treatment, that`s the sort of treatment which causes problems in the first place

I have seen me being really hard on folk at training who take there feck ups out on the dogs, if they think they are gona get a slap on the back of the head when they do wrong they soon polish up on there handling, {my bad} lol

Very well put, Patch, and you are absolutely spot-on.

When we first acquired Roxy (soon to be 2 years ago), she was like a Flymo at the end of the lead - all over the place. She was up and down like a jack-in-the-box when put in the 'sit' at dog classes and out with them. She was a bit over 5 years old. She is an extremely friendly wee character, and I wouldn't have her any other way, however, at first when off the lead with us she would decide she had selective deafness and shoot off towards all and sundry, those with dogs and those without and no amount of me calling her or running in the opposite direction helped me get her back. She either came back when she was finished or I had to go and retrieve her! All the time she was wanting to play, but that wasn't the point, I don't mind her playing with other dogs at all, I'm all for it, but she had to learn to come back when called and not run out on to the road to say hello to somebody who caught her eye! She was very much like a coiled spring.

Now I can stop her running off when I don't want her to and she's happy to go and mingle when I allow her to. She sits and stays perfectly on command, does distance "stops" and "downs" on command and is able to do out of sight stays. She now walks beautifully on the lead plus much more.

If I had "smacked" or "tapped" her for not doing as she was told, like for running off, pulling on the lead or disappearing off to see a dog when put in a sit or down stay, she would not be as happy and as contented and calm as she is now, and her character wouldn't be as brilliant as it is, IMO. She is a sensitive wee soul.

Believe me, there were one or two times where I despaired. For instance, I'd only had her around a week and me, my friend and the dogs decided to go to a Companion dog show. I decided to take Roxy purely for the socialisation side of things. At one point, outside the venue, I was walking Roxy around the rough grass area and I nearly went flying. Partly because Roxy was pulling on the lead and partly because it was rough ground. Taking all that in to account, and the fact that I was still so worried that I wouldn't be able to keep her, I was stressed out and emotional. Now, I could've resorted to "smacking" her for not doing as she was told but, of course, I didn't. Instead I threw the lead down and told my friend to keep her while I had a walk on my own for 5 minutes for a breather - I walked away. If I had smacked her, I would never have forgiven myself and I'm sure the confidence she had in me would be shattered, she could possibly be hand shy and I would have failed as her owner, without a doubt.

Not sure if this is relevant at all to the debate but there you go, take from it what you like.

i always guive my dog a warning... 'ooo your get such a smacked bum in am minute!'

lol but im only kidding about if he is being really naughty ill give him a little jolt on his collar, but i dont hit him or anything id prob knock him out his only tiny!

ive seen loads of people hit there dogs in pets at home this lady smacked her gsd puppy, and the japaneese inu across the road he smacked him round the nose!

I'll second that. Both the dogs I have had have been rescues who were hit/beaten at some point.
Smacking them would have achieved what? Another human to be scared of.
The reality those dogs lived with was cruelty by human hand, they sure as eggs weren't going to get the same from me.

Dogs definately know the difference between a hefty play slapping and even a fairly light correction slap, my lot queue up for the play slap but you wouldn't see 'em for dust if I used the correction slap.
Also for those that say the dogs don't listen to shouting, I actually find the quieter I speak, the more mine listen. Dogs follow calm leaders.