I thought my dogs had excellant recall, but telepathically is beyond my abilities

Not got the time to read the whole thread.
I would think it would be a tad hypocritical to be anti ecollar and yet hit your dog if it doesn't listen. A 'tap' to gain attention is still hitting your dog so it responds to you surely? Much better to use tone of voice or tickles????

Don't hit my dogs, don't yell at my dogs...but do use an angry 'tone' if they are being mutant teenagers...

Is it as bad as using an ecollar??? Not sure, never thought about it, under certain circuimstances I would say yes...in some case it could even be worse. A hard wallop designed to hurt, would perhaps (being the important word here) be worse than an ecollar on its lowest possible setting,depnds on motivation and the dog/handler I guess.

Must admit to tapping my dogs to get there attention, once they are concentrating nothing short of a bomb will get through. Talking nicely, shouting or screaming has no efferct at all, a tap on the hip and they will turn and look at you with an expression that says, hello, did not know you were there.

Hitting would be pointless and painful, to me, my dogs will always respond to being told they are good but would ignore a clout.

Mine too.....but if only!!

I would never smack a dog for something like weeing or pooing on the floor or for doing something when they didnt know any better. Flynn mainly gets the smacks because he's the naughty one and always gives his missions 100% focus.

Flynn is extremely greedy and will push his way past me at feeding time to stick his head in the food tubs whilst i'm filling the bowls. He knows he should sit and wait on his bed but it's too good an opportunity for him to miss so for this he gets hauled away and a smack as simply shouting has no effect. This is plain naughty behaviour IMO and not because he doesnt know any better.

I think sometimes this country goes too far in telling us what we can and cannot do. As long as I dont beat my dogs and they are not mistreated then if I want to give them the odd smack (and I dont mean full force whacks) when they are genuinely naughty then I dont see what concern it is of anybody elses.

When does a tap become a hit and a hit become a smack and a smack become a wallop though?

I would say if your dog is being hit for a behaviour it does regularly then rather than thinking 'he knows what to do he's being naughty' it would be best to retrain it surely???Take it all back a step and reteach, sounds like your dog doesn't know what to do and finds it nmore rewarding to charge at the food bowls as he probably gets a reward for it, be it negative attention from you or small bits of food periodically (which of course is worse than everytime).
I would ask myself what my dog was thinking and learning for that to be happening all the time.
Sorry, not having a go, just expressing my opinion.

I dont have to smack my dogs they are cesar trained I just have to shhhh and they are good

I agree with Ramble. Perhaps it would be kinder for Flynn for you to take a step back and retrain him to behave they way you want when it's meal times. He's obviously not 100% sure of what is being asked for him, therefore, instead of "hauling him away and smacking him" (this makes for grim and cruel reading, for me, I'm afraid) I think it would be kinder to start the "stay in your bed" training all over again to try and solidify this behaviour.

What about the rescue Dobermann you have? Does he get hit, too, if he disobeys you? If so, I wouldn't have rehomed him to you if I knew you smack your dogs, even occasionally, for what simply is natural opportunistic behaviour in some dogs. JMO.

Ok I would say hitting your dog is worse than using a e collar. I have used a e collar on my dog with great results.
I think hitting a dog would hurt alot more than giving him a shock on the lowest setting. I used a e collar to stop my dog chassing sheep. If I were to hit him after he finished chassing the sheep he would not know it was for chassing the sheep he would come back and get a slap. As it is the collar he ran after the sheep he felt pain for one second then it was gone I was not angry with him and we carried on with our walk he just knew that if he went for them again it would be unpleasent for him.
I have not used it for any other training other than the chased of live stock and that was for the good of him as I did not want to end up with him shot. Where I live you can not avoid sheep as they roam free.

My dog does not fear me or the copllar infact I never put it on him now as he is not bother by sheep at all. But I would use one again. I think people who say it barbaric should try them out on themselves(which is what I did) anbd then see they are not all that bad. But I will say they can be open to abuse if not used correctly

Why ot just keep him on a lead around livestock???