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Location: london.uk
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 8,012
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Location: cornwall uk
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 7,132
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09-07-2010, 02:28 PM
All the rubbish tries at justifying it make it worse!
The only reason for using electric shocks on any animal is because you are unable or unwilling to teach things by not hurting the animal-----I'd like to think AP is unable but I think he is unwilling.
rune
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Location: london.uk
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 8,012
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09-07-2010, 02:32 PM
Originally Posted by rune 
It bis sick isn't it?
All the rubbish tries at justifying it make it worse!
The only reason for using electric shocks on any animal is because you are unable or unwilling to teach things by not hurting the animal-----I'd like to think AP is unable but I think he is unwilling.
rune
... wonder what hes like with kids 
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Location: UK
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09-07-2010, 03:35 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer
WW. I don't understand your second statement, but thats probably me lol. Can you clarify what you mean.
I think only the DC guy makes it sound like torture. Everyone else who discuss's it just views it as another training approach. I think the DC guy is very passionate but sometimes that makes him come across wrong.
Minihaha
I love dogs, I don't believe loving dogs means you shouldn't use an effective/humane method to train just because it upsets some people.
The dobie in the pic is probably being trained to sit. Its a dobbs (but others use it of course) idea that the dog percieves the stim as pressure (e;g physical pressure) and much like horse handling will move away from that pressure. You can also put the e collar on top of the neck to teach down and on the side of the neck to teach the dog a closer heel ect.
Using punishment is not humane, if it was such a gentle effective way to train then we would use it for children - whereas clicker training IS used sucessfully for babies and gymnastics
If positive training isnt working for you its YOUR limitations and skills, not the methods.
Tupac
Dog had a prob that benifited from the e collar, I would ahve used one anyway to rebuild dogs confidence in owner.
Just yuck! your idea of confidence is worlds away from mine! You CANNOT punish anyone or anything into having confidence in you
Loki
Misread post.
Its not abuse anymore than putting a lead on a dog is abuse. In fact e collars can't inflict physical harm but leads can.
Adam
Originally Posted by honeysmummy
Actually horses to do not yield to pressure.
If you push a horse it will lean back against you (anyone who has ever had a horse tread on their foot will know you cannot push them off!!).....I believe dogs do as well, which is why you do not push a dog into a sit...you raise the nose by offering a treat so the back end lowers.
Originally Posted by Tupacs2legs
...ffs!!..why use an e-collar to teach a sit and heelwork!!!.
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Location: Blackpool, UK
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 5,045
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09-07-2010, 03:52 PM
A good trainer uses their skills and reads the body language of the dog. They do not use torture devices. My trainer has helped many many dogs and their owners using kind effective methods. I cannot see a situation which justifies the use of E Collars on any animal, any more than I could justify putting them on my children.
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Location: UK
Joined: Mar 2010
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09-07-2010, 05:18 PM
Why teach basics with it? well because the basics (reliably distraction proofed) are what most people need, I see laods of dogs who can sit/heel whatever when not distrcated but as soon as something more interesting comes along, theres no chance.
Re confidence, the dog learns your a comfortable spot. An abused dog thinks your an uncomfortable spot. Knowig the owner is a nice place to be builds confidence. After our first session with the previously roughly handled dog he wagged his tail at the owner for the first time in months!
Adam
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Location: UK
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09-07-2010, 05:27 PM
Anyone can put an e-collar on a dog and it be effective, course it will..
The trainers that use these sorts of materials just want a quick job finished and to take your money. They dont care if the dog continues to be a good pup through out adult hood. They have their money and big ego and leave you to it.
Anyone that trains through pain and fear shouldnt be allowed near dogs
A dog behaving with an e-collar on is behaving just because it knows what comes next if it doesnt behave or do as its told, dogs are not stupied. You havent trainied it really, the dog just knows whats best for it I guess
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Location: In an English country cowpat
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,810
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09-07-2010, 05:57 PM
If they are so incredibly brilliant and painless then why are they banned in Wales?
(That was rhetorical, Adam; no need to answer.... but I bet you will
).Surely there must be something wrong with someone who feels the need to post the same stuff day in day out in an almost obsessive manner?
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Location: london.uk
Joined: May 2009
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09-07-2010, 06:07 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer
The stim from an e collar isn't sufficently strong to do damage.
Why teach basics with it? well because the basics (reliably distraction proofed) are what most people need, I see laods of dogs who can sit/heel whatever when not distrcated but as soon as something more interesting comes along, theres no chance.
Re confidence, the dog learns your a comfortable spot. An abused dog thinks your an uncomfortable spot. Knowig the owner is a nice place to be builds confidence. After our first session with the previously roughly handled dog he wagged his tail at the owner for the first time in months!
Adam
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Location: UK
Joined: Mar 2008
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09-07-2010, 06:15 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer
The stim from an e collar isn't sufficently strong to do damage.
Why teach basics with it? well because the basics (reliably distraction proofed) are what most people need, I see laods of dogs who can sit/heel whatever when not distrcated but as soon as something more interesting comes along, theres no chance.
Re confidence, the dog learns your a comfortable spot. An abused dog thinks your an uncomfortable spot. Knowig the owner is a nice place to be builds confidence. After our first session with the previously roughly handled dog he wagged his tail at the owner for the first time in months!
Adam
as a trainer isnt it your job to teach them how to distraction proof behaviours by working in different locations under different distractions
Pretty basic stuff for any trainer and most owners I would have thought
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