After looking into both the 'old' and 'new' electric shock collars and how both are supposed to be used, I still feel very strongly against their use for a number of reasons.

Old (high level shock), new (supposed to be used at low levels to give discomfort), these things are designed to be used as punishers. For them to work, the dog has to be set up to fail so that the shock can be applied. That in itself, to me, makes them an appalling piece of kit.

When I assess any training tool, I look at its desgned purpose. The designed purpose of the electric shock collar is to administer positive punishment. In learning theory, positive punishment is something added that causes a behaviour to decrease/stop. For a positive punisher to work, the dog has to actively avoid receiving the punishment. No matter what arguments or 'niceties' the pro users put on this, for any living creature to actively work to avoid this type of punishment it has to cause pain, or at the very least severe discomfort.

This is not the type of relationship I want with my dogs and I'm sure not the type of relationship that any reasonable person wants.

If we look at the argument that the 'modern' e-collar is designed to administer the minimum level of discomfort to get the job done is used 'correctly' then we can also see just how flawed that argument is for continuing their legal use. To use the tool 'correctly' would take exquisite timing of applying the punisher. I meet very, very few people who have exquisite timing. To use the tool correctly would take at least a very strong understanding of how they should be used. Hands up - how many of us read instruction manuals more than the cursory glance to get us started.

Human nature is a very strange thing. Many, many people think that if little is good, more must be better. A couple of examples:

E-collar purchased to stop the dog from jumping the garden fence to get to next doors cat. Cursory glance at instructions <sigh>, collar put on, collar used on low level, no effect. Collar bumped up a couple of notches on the dial, dog screams and runs in. Hey presto, it stopped the dog from trying to jump the fence. It also stopped the dog from going out into the garden for over a month and took a lot of work on the owners part (and the binning of the collar) to make the dog feel safe enough to go into the garden again. Six months later, the dog was completely over his experience, but had also discovered that he didn't get that pain if he jumped the fence to get to next doors cat - mmmmm!

E-collar purchased to stop the dog running up and down the fence to get at the postman. E-collar put on, used on high setting, dog terrified, behaviour worsened and generalised to anything passing the fence, dog given over to the armed forces, dog destroyed when he attacked his handler.

Both true cases. Both times the collar used incorrectly.

I wonder how many dogs would be put to sleep or rehomed if we saw these things become popular? Far more than they are supposed to have 'saved' I betcha.

I could go on, but won't as I'd bore you all to death, but, and I'm told it's OK to do this, I feel so strongly about this particular piece of kit that I've signed the Downing Street Petition

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/Shockcollars/

in favour of them being banned. Petition signing is something I don't normally do, but I honestly feel that there are far too many basic welfare issues involved not to

Chris

I have only a few small words to say - total ban on them.

Total Ban End of!!!

I cannot understand anyone not agreeing with a total ban to be perfectly honest.

I'm sorry - I do not feel there is a place for these collars at all.
Patch has said most of what I would say but I'd like to add that I've heard people say things like if we're going to ban e-collars we should also ban belts, forks etc.
These are everyday products and should not be used in dog training - I'd like to think that anyone caught using something like that in dog training would be prosecuted but you can't ban a product that is made for something else just because it can and is used in the wrong context.

E-collars were produced to hurt the dog to stop it doing it again. They are not produced for another reason and then used wrongly - so therefore it is nothing like banning forks.

Let me suggest that a small child who keeps exhibiting an undesirable behaviour is shocked by electricity each time he does it. He will surely learn not to do it right? So what's wrong with that?! Most of you should be appalled with that comment so why do we find it acceptable on dogs?

Sorry - I'm not very articulate at the moment but wanted to show my full support for a BAN on shock collars.

ban them. if you've ever had a static electricity shock from touching plastic, or your car in dry weather, that's what the dog feels.

Normally, I'm not in favour of blanket bans at all - more in favour of persuasion rather than force to change people behaviour, but I can see the place for a ban here. These things look less than purpose-designed tools and more like a weapon in search of a target!

Incidentally, did anyone notice that a "Google spider" has been busy, and placed an ad for the things on the left of this page? It appears to have "thought" the thread was in favour of them - don't go blaming Azz, folks!

Snorri

ban them. if you've ever had a static electricity shock from touching plastic, or your car in dry weather, that's what the dog feels.

Totally agree Nero

ban dont see why we should use them on dogs you would not put them on a child if they was doing wrong

A complete ban in my view, they are so easily misused. Not that I like the thought of using them responsibly either though.

I wonder if there are specific reasons why most people who use collars opt for them?

Dog training is as much about training yourself as well as your dog IMO. Or so Willow has told me