How 'bout you google "retriever trainers". I would really like to know who you saw.

How 'bout you google "retriever trainers". I would really like to know who you saw.

Already answered your last statement and question, which you asked earlier. Sorry it took so long to get to it.

I don't consider what is going on here to be arguing, altho I do admit there is precious little discussion going on.

She had her one chance with the flush, (remember the flush was the command), and she chose to ignore the command. Since flush means sit, and obviously I could not repeat the flush with a correction, I used the sit whistle.

I can't think of any circumstance where there should be a gap between command and shock, the message is right now. How long a gap should there be? What if she kept going in the gap, thus continuing the self-rewarding behavior (totally unfair to allow the dog to do that), and getting that much closer to her demise? What if she finally started to sit just as I decided the gap was long enough and hit the button, thus correcting the behavior I asked for?

Employing a gap between command and shock has a lot of
potential for disaster, no? And for what it's worth, the "what ifs" I posed are both examples of what I would consider to be abusive use of the collar.

Thanks Brierley, I was pretty sure that's what the promarc post meant, but I had difficulty understanding the wording; still not sure whether he/she meant alpha role or alpha roll.

Whole hog with the alpha roll huh? I got a call from a woman who was advised by a trainer, who had never even seen her dog, to use the alpha roll (advice and "how to" imparted over the freakin' phone!) The woman called me the day after her trip to the ER to have her face sewn back together. Amazing how theories get all knotted up, isn't it?

The posts where I got "lost" were meant to convey my observations of pack behavior, including dominance.

Re: dominance, see my answer to Brierley.

RE: KP, been there done that.

It was a question (about whether or not you think she would have obeyed the whistle without the shock) rather than a condemnation.

The point is, the dog couldn't have associated that shock with the first command (in this case the flush) as a reminder command had been given. She got the shock without any 'choice' of action on that command.

I don't see or get involved in many e-collar discussions these days. Going back a little I did and what I always found amusing was when there were two or three collar trainers on the threads. It was guaranteed that, before long, each were calling the other abusive in how they used the collar.

One, among many, very good cases for banning the tool is to get two or three users in the same place and let them do battle

right i'll re-ask then you do believe in dominance theory, anyone half clued will know what this means without being told the meaning, dominance from dogs to humans dominance from dog to dog, as you mention alpha roles ect. also i wanted you to have a look at this article, it was posted by a leading dog trainer in positive training, in the article it also slams E-shock collars from leading behaviourist and trainers ect ect but yet your trying to say there safe.


http://www.squidoo.com/collars-shock

post upon post take time out put your feet up and listen to some actual experts. by the way only asking dont worry, but are you a qualified trainer/behaviorist.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=CuC4hEaZQeY