I can't sort out the Quotes thing so hopefully this will be clear:

I said:

(... I do believe, as per the article, there are times when it's both unfair and unrealistic to expect dogs to never ever react in an aggressive manner).

I think we actually expect far more of our dogs than we ever do of ourselves, it's rare any of us humans to get through life without "snapping"

WestieN said:

So you think it's ok for your dog to snap at another dog? I do hope that I never meet you and your dogs on a walk.

My reply:

Ouch! My dog actually very rarely snaps at another dog, although it has happened. There has always been a reason for it which I've understood, and she has superb bite inhibition. She's excellent off lead with strange dogs and I'm happy for her to meet them as long as they appear Ok and the owners look sensible


I said:

Some dogs will never show any kind of "aggression" although these are rare.

Westie N said:

Rare? I don't think it's rare for some dogs not to show any aggression.....I know plenty of dogs who never show any aggression, for example, snapping or growling.

My reply:

Most dogs will snap at another dog if it tries to mount them, (esp. if it's male-male ) or if it scares them or tries to take their toy or food - it's totally normal canine communication, although not always very acceptable to us as humans :smt001

Wys
x

oh, you have no need to be sad. Both my dogs are happy, well-adjusted dogs.

IF my dogs were to snap, they would then be told 'don't you dare' in a low, firm voice, and then be put into a 'down'.

The above method also applies if they find food on walks, if they and I spot it, they don't even sniff it and walk straight by it, I could also use the 'leave' command, in the same voice. This is then followed by loads of praise in a higher tone of voice, and perhaps a small treat, such as a Coachie.

The fact is, the dog was not being considered and had no option but to try to help himself.
Should the dog have been made to stand his ground [ by the owner not moving him a foot or so away ? ], then get a rollocking for it ? [ iow the owner `certainly letting the dog know` ].
You can`t have it both ways
The dog clearly communicated discomfort, was ignored, was not given a bit of space, so reached the point where he had to deal with it himself.
Any `punishment` should have been by the owner to herself, not at the dog.

"Most dogs will snap at another dog if it tries to mount them, (esp. if it's male-male )"

Excuse me? I the the word 'most' in the above phrase should be changed to 'some'.

At agility training today, a manic male, neutered, Border Collie had an attempt at mounting my friend's male, intact, Weimaraner. At no time did he even attempt to snap, and it wouldn't have been acceptable if he did, imo. He growled, but that's as far as he went. Snapping can be quite dangerous, imo, what if a snapping dog actually nips and breaks another dogs skin, would that still be ok? Not in my book it wouldn't.

Hey, if you're happy for your dog to snap at other dogs, then I sincerely hope nothing more serious happens as a result.

You'd agree with one dog getting a bollocking because it was basically unable to cope with the OTT dog? I don't understand - are you suggesting that telling a dog off will make it happier next time,and that that is preferable to moving away? If so I can assure you that doesn't happen.

If you were near something that frightened you, and you were forced to stay near it for hours whilst owners chatted away, how would you feel?

Overall you'd be stressed and actually far more likely to lash out somewhere along the line...

Wys
x

Exactly, those are my thoughts too Patch.

Esp this bit: so reached the point where he had to deal with it himself.

In this instance the dog was a rottie, very sweet actually, and well behaved, but he was at the end of his tether poor lad. However, as John Fisher would say, the rott has active defence reflexes - these are hard wired - they cannot be altered. The breed standard used to read (not sure if it still does and i can't be bothered to check which is why I've said "used to" ):

The rottweiler is a guarding breed, having a disposition which is basically friendly and peaceful. His reaction to disagreeable stimuli is tough, fearless and assured. When threatened he goes into action immediately, ...fearless and unflinching...when the threat passes ... his mood changes to a peaceful one".

It's hard to change what is hard wired. Dogs come as they are, it's up to us to understand them and an owner with a dog with active defence reflexes should protect her dog and not make him protect himself ...

Considering the breed standard, that rott I think did very well to control himselfl to the extent that he did

Wys
x

So lets translate these bits as though it were dog to dog communication

Dog one : ` dont you dare ` in a low firm voice = a grumble

Dog two : heeds the warning, backs off a little, and visually indicates, ` sorry mate, I was just being friendly`,

Dog one : now given adequate space, he relaxes and indicates, ` thats much better, you just startled me a bit mate, fancy a sniff around ? There`s a great scent on that tree over there ! = praise and reward


We have to realise that dogs have a complex language between each other, and a visual snap is not always what we humans perceive it to be.

To put it another way, you spot a friend in the distance so wave and shout to her to get her attention.

A big bloke towers over you and gives a menacing sounding ` oi, shut up or I`ll give you what for you noisy bleep ` which makes you feel intimidated.

The next time you see a friend in the distance, will you :
A] try to get her attention as before

B ] you hesitate then try getting nearer first for fear of someone suddenly having a go ?

I suspect B would be the case for a lot of people.
That one experience could change how you feel about communicating to the friend in the distance, the body language would become a little timid and unconfident, so seeing a friend in the distance can trigger an uncomfortable response.

For some people, something as simple as that can build and build until it becomes agoraphobia or other difficulties in social situations.
And thats with us humans having thought processing ability to make sense of some bloke just being a bit of a bully in a bad mood.

So, can you now imagine the minefield it can be for dogs meeting other dogs when someone influences their perceptions of those other dogs, how they greet them, or how they ask for a bit of space in perfectly normal canine language ?

have you not saw the video of holly rotty and the JRT Jocky? lol, I know what your saying though, I think the point we have tried to put over is the OP in the previous thread made out it was normal to behave in that manner,

Yes, I do agree with the dog being told off. Snapping of any sort is unacceptable, imo. It could result in something far more serious.

The fact is, I wouldn't lash out to the extent of possibly injuring someone and it's up to us to teach our dogs that snapping at another dog is not acceptable, imo.