The bottom line is no one trainer is perfect they all say, do, or impliment one thing or another that we don't like. That's why I prefer to take certain things from certain trainers

Unacceptable is choking, hanging or electrocuting a dog---all of which CM has been seen to do. We won't even go to the kicking and the 'illusion' collar worn high up to create maximum discomfort.

Sad that anyone could think these things are acceptable.

rune

That's true, but there are certain trainers I won't take anything from. CM is one of them.

Interesting, Rune, that you mention that what you put forward as unacceptable you state as having been "seen" to have been done. What about things that are not "seen"- do they not happen? Ian Dunbar stated in his article that he only took part in collaboration with Cesar Milan if he could have "full veto power over the manuscript, photos and filming". As it was he said he had "never had my words and actions presented so accurately — almost word for word". What he did want taken out was a picture about which he said "There is a really silly choice of photo in the chapter on Hands-Off Dog Training with my hands on Dune’s collar". This is not an image he wants portrayed and he has asked for it to be edited out, which he is assured it will be. So, a bit of judicious editing by Ian Dunbar - something that won't be "seen". Because things aren't seen, it doesn't mean they don't happen. What would have happened if perhaps a dog had taken off towards a main road, failed to observe a recall command from ID, and ID had to rugby tackle it to the ground - would this have been vetoed? My feeling, and it is only my opinion, is that he goes out of his way to mention this picture which goes very much against his hands-off mantra incase it surfaces on Youtube or something - damage limitation.

I mention this particular incident because it relates to a trainer we have been discussing, but editing out doesn't apply solely to Ian Dunbar, it relates to any trainer who uses the media. The media is a very untrustworthy source of validation - I've been on a couple of dignified protests full of women, children, and other normal everyday people, which were reported in our local media. One episode was where some people on the march went into the town hall to put their views forward. It was portrayed next day as though everyone had rampaged in, wreaking havoc, and must have terrified some of the more nervous burghers of our good community. The other one, a pretty hardcore political group, who know the ins and outs of media portrayal, set out to get their banners at the front and back of a large group of people, to suggest that their group wasn't the tiny little knot of folks that it actually was.

You didn't actually answer, do you think that strangulation, kicking, electric shocks, pinning down etc etc are acceptable methods of training a dog?
Becky

I never get the idea the ID ment he never touches his dogs, just that in the context of a chapter about hands free training that photograph was perhaps out of place
He never said he was forcebly dragging his dog about by the collar, just that his hand was on the collar
and yes of course in any 'show' there will be lots of editing, at least with VS she talks about repeating and practising over time, CM makes it look that his methods work first time all the time - one psst and suddnely the dog is fixed - but if you just look at the camera angles you can see this quick bit of training happened in many takes

I'm not sure if you were referring to me, Mahooli. I wasn't asked the question...?

These are emotive words being used by Rune, and now yourself. Strangulation - hung from the nearest tree? Electrocution - bare electrical wire stuck in its ear? Kicking - using it as a football, from one end of the street to another? Pinning down - strapping it to a board and rendering it completely helpless?

You're going to have to clarify it a bit first...

With regard to the hands off thing, here is what ID says in his contribution to CM's book: "I mentioned over and over that I consider touching a dog to be an earned privilege rather than a right and that training should always be off-leash and hands-off. I have always taught people, to never touch a dog to force him to comply but rather, to touch him afterwards as a reward if that’s what he enjoys". So, a picture of him hands-on with Dune is very much against what he is advocating in the book! Which, I think, is why he wanted it taken out...

There is an episode with a husky type dog, which, if you tone down the language quite a bit, sounds like it might be one of the ones you are relating to. I've seen it on various CM threads. I often wonder what would happen if a child had run into that dog and accidentally shoved it - would it have ignored the child, or exploded into action. What situation would its handler have ended up in - likely to be hanging onto a very energised dog at the end of a lead doing its best to damage small child? But perhaps not, maybe the dog would have realised the small colliding child didn't really mean it?

There's also an episode again often seen on threads where CM seems to be working with a dog that is terrorising a cat. It is known as the one in which he is using a hidden electric collar. As people can see it, and therefore point it out, it doesn't seem to be hidden at all. Is it being used on electric power or vibrating power, low or high? Are people who are against electric collars against electric fencing for cows and horses?

I wouldn't use any electrical apparatus on either my dogs or for fencing in cattle or horses. But, the folks who had Marley, star of Marley and Me, apparently have invisible fencing (i.e., hidden electrics). Did anyone boycott the film or refuse to read the book?

I would haved liked to put all these points in one post, but it would have been huge. It seemed better to do it point by point, and make it easier to read.