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Location: Dogsey and Worcestershire
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 49,483
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18-12-2009, 04:10 PM
One thing I really like about 'positive' training, if you obtain a dog at the puppy stage and it never knows fear/ is never handled roughly the dogs true character is not suppressed or inhibited in any way and shines through.
Dogs which have been roughly treated and are inhibited through fear can gradually improve with careful handling but I am not sure they ever achieve their full potential .
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Location: UK
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 7,723
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18-12-2009, 05:09 PM
So often I hear people moan that they dont use treats in training cos their dog just goes mad offering tricks
I love that - I love to watch a dog who has no fear of getting it wrong trying to use its brain to figure out what you want
and when they use their brain the results are so much faster
With Ben it took quite a while to teach anything, he was willing but just took a long time for it to 'click' (give a paw took 9 months)
Then I watched a you tube demo of free shaping, put a bit of card on the floor and within 5 min had a dog who as soon as I released him raced full speed to the card and slamed down grinning at me and tail flying
It the same with training stays, make it rewarding and dont positivly punish the dog for getting up - its his choice - rewards happen lots when you stay, if a distraction happens then it is your chance to earn a reward, then the dogs are happy and alert in the stay
Punish the dog every time it moves and yup it will stay - but its staying cos its scared to move not because it has chose to stay
Positive punishment suppresses dogs, sure they may walk nicely, stay when you tell them too, not bark at the door but the joy has gone
and for us dog owners too, if you punish then you are always looking for the bad in your dog, many trainers activly ignore the dog being good and wait till they are bad so they get the chance to 'train' it
If you reward then you are looking for the good, you realise how fun and how much good your dog is
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Location: Cardiff, UK
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,033
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18-12-2009, 06:11 PM
Originally Posted by scarter 
I didn't say 'top' trainers. I said 'top-notch' trainers. Highly regarded and experienced trainers in my area. I doubt you'd know of them unless you're familiar with my area (Glasgow)? But one club in Barrhead, another in Clarkston taught me to use this method on my dogs - and then suggested we try something else when we ran into difficulties in certain situations. My point wasn't to imply that these are the best trainers (I personally would favour behaviourists over trainers as a rule), but rather that we worked closely with people that are trained and experienced in these methods.
I know quite a few trainers over the country , know people from Scotland, East Kilbride club Etc, as we compete all other the country, so i could know them, alot of the people i compete with also do pet training/ dog club stuff too
Certainly
When teaching a dog through use of rewards it's common to start out rewarding the dog every time it gets things right - or even nearly right. You've got to make it worth it's while otherwise there is no reason for it to do what you want rather than continue to do what HE wants! In the case of walking to heel a common approach is to start out by constantly stuffing food in the dog's mouth. Gradually you wean the dog off it's dependence on food/reward by increasing the interval between treats or only treating the dog's best efforts.
no not really , this is not how i would use treats to teach loose lead walking, this is how i would teach HW (sort of)
Partly it's about making the desired behaviour habit - in many cases it'll become second nature to do certain things that you ask without the need for rewards. Perhaps just a bit of reinforcement now and again. Some things will always need a lot or reinforcement or the dog simply won't be willing to do what YOU want rather than what HE wants. A lot depends upon the individual dog and it's not an exact science. Lots of room for error.
Again no not really , its about the dog UNDERSTANDING what is required, This takes along time, if you teach correctly it is a type of science
Well of course that's possible. But if two very experienced trainers and my husband and I (who were very dedicated to training the dogs and researched things at length) couldn't get it right then that itself is a flaw in the approach - too difficult to do well. A good reason for considering supplementing with another approach that you find easier to implement (or even changing approach completely).
maybe you were doing it wrong , ? it sounds as if you were reinforcing the wrong thing tbh
Yes, as I've said this was a concious decision. We did an awful lot of distraction training and our dogs learned to walk nicely in the face of lots of distractions. But their instinct to sniff, roam...and the boy's desire to stay out in front of his sister proved to be very difficult to cope with. Our choice was to pretty much avoid walks outside until we'd had the time to build up gradually enough (perhaps years) or to complement our training with another approach that would allow us to make progress whilst giving the dogs the exercise, stimulation and socialisation that they needed.
Yes but theres distracation training & then theres distraction training, it dosent take years , but is ongoing, I think you give up too easily & like a quick fix
Yes. That's exactly what I explained. No point banging on with an approach that isn't working well when there's another way of doing things that will get results with less hardship to the dog. As I've said, I'm sure it would have been possible to make this work but it wasn't in my dog's best interest.
No theres not but i think you should have looked more at your stages of training to see where it went wrong with you rather than blaming the method
This is the case with virtually ALL training techniques. In the right hands with the right dog and right situation they can work very well. In the wrong hands/wrong dog/wrong situation they can fail terribly and perhaps even cause big problems. It's all about choosing the techniques that work best for you and your dog in each individual situation. And if necessary finding someone with the expertise to either make the approach work or advise an alternative if you're struggling. That's the tricky bit in my opinion - getting the right expert help. Too many trainers seem more focussed on making their 'pet' techniques work in all situations and less focussed on the welfare of individual dogs. It's like being caught up in the middle of a battle when all you care about is the welfare of your dogs!
You need to understand how dogs learn, & adapt your training, punishment DOES work faster, but whats the rush?
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Location: Durham, England
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 6
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18-12-2009, 09:52 PM
As much of a huge Silvia fan I am, you cannot really compare these styles, there is a difference between walking "formally" and not pulling. The very simple thing about teaching a dog not to pull is your reward must ALWAYS be higher than the reward it's trying to gain by pulling. The hard thing is being consistant.
Scarter, why did you stop or decrease reward and then expect your dog to still continue? This seems to be a very common mistake nowadays, one then badly corrected using things like "popping" or whatever on earth you want to call it.
If a dog doesn't want to stay to heel imo you need to reconsider your faults, not the dogs. You don't go to your job for a month, then stop getting paid the next month and be fine with your boss expecting you to perform at the same standard.
For those who want to know how Silvia taught her dogs that formal style:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-d-cJ4wg7c
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Location: Cardiff, UK
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,033
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19-12-2009, 07:07 AM
I loved how you taught the desired area with the box, loved loved that!!!! I might use that with my next pup! Very clever.
This is esp good because if any of you want to walk your dogs in a further back Heel position for road walking (as oposed to HW like this vid)then you could utilise the box to make it clearer where you want the dog
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Also this video as it goes on , How to switch reward as i mentioned above. the reward (food)is switched to a tuggy, which is not even used as a lure.
If you wanted your dog further back for "un offical" HW you would reward behind in whatever your desired position was.
Thanks for posting that , FabUlous!!!!!
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Location: Glasgow, UK
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 810
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19-12-2009, 10:04 AM
Originally Posted by mishflynn
punishment DOES work faster, but whats the rush?
- Puts it in danger
- Puts others in danger
- Results in missery or stress for the dog
- Results in a restricted lifestyle or unhappy life for the dog
When deciding how to tackle any given problem I think you need to look at it from the angle of what's kindest to the dog. Tricks, non-critical behaviour issues, sports etc it doesn't matter a jot whether your dog ever learns these things so I personally see no reason to ever do anything more than try to make the dog enjoy the things you want it to do.
But if your dog has behavioural problems or is so unreliable that he can't be trusted out and about mixing with other dogs and enjoying off-lead romps then this is not good for his wellfare. Pussy-footing around with techniques that aren't working or take forever to work might even be desccribed as cruel or neglegent.
I don't agree with your statement that "punishement DOES work faster". In very many situations I find that reward works faster than punishment ever could. But certainly for some things I would agree that you get faster and in some cases more reliable results with punishment. In a situation where a quick solution can drastically improve the dog's life it's almost cruel to drag out the misery while you dogedly insist on using reward only if punishment can solve the problem quickly and easily and put the dog out of it's misery. Punishment doesn't need to be harsh - just a consequence that makes the dog less likely to repeat undesirable behavior. Mother nature equipped us all to use this as a valuable learning tool that helps to keep us alive!
Originally Posted by macagyp
The very simple thing about teaching a dog not to pull is your reward must ALWAYS be higher than the reward it's trying to gain by pulling.
If for example, the reward that your dog values most highly is food or a toy then you will get VERY good results simply rewarding the dog for walking nicely beside you.
If however, the reward that your dog values most highly is in the environment (e.g. following scents, chasing rabits, running wild across open countryside) then you'll find it difficult to follow the simple rule that "your reward must ALWAYS be higher than the reward the dog is trying to gain by pulling".
This is exactly why we got better results when we switched our approach. If the dog pulled we stood still. The moment he stopped pulling we walked towards the thing that he was trying to gain by pulling. That was his reward. Pulling was punished by denial of the reward. Some people just stand still when the dog pulls (neagative punishment) - others turn and walk in the opposite direction (positive punishment). We got best results with the latter approach.
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Location: Cardiff, UK
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,033
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19-12-2009, 10:31 AM
- Puts it in danger
- Puts others in danger
- Results in missery or stress for the dog
- Results in a restricted lifestyle or unhappy life for the dog
When deciding how to tackle any given problem I think you need to look at it from the angle of what's kindest to the dog. Tricks, non-critical behaviour issues, sports etc it doesn't matter a jot whether your dog ever learns these things so I personally see no reason to ever do anything more than try to make the dog enjoy the things you want it to do.
This post is about Teaching the Dog to Heel, Not tricks, to be able to walk down the road,without pulling away from the handler, without being rude & obnoxious & to accept that walking By the handlers side as the desired behaviour & how to Teach that, The OP used a example of some Fun HW, But was certainly not UK competition Standard, but just HW for fun. Id Never ever want my dog to walk on the lead like that in everyday circumstances, but it was used to show dogs can ENJOY being Taught to be with the handler. Now you can use Similar methods but Modified to get the Walking behaviour you want, if you are a good training. That isnt a trick.
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If however, the reward that your dog values most highly is in the environment (e.g. following scents, chasing rabits, running wild across open countryside) then you'll find it difficult to follow the simple rule that "your reward must ALWAYS be higher than the reward the dog is trying to gain by pulling".
You can train against distractions, you are the human, you have got to be able to use what the dog values most highly as reward, so if my dogvalued following scents"" hihest then i would use that as reward not as a excuse not to train kindly. You can control any reward if you are clever enough & the dog is conditioned correctly, i can walk my dogs in their "with me " position through a field of shhep without them even looking at them
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Different methods SUIT different people, its ok if the method dosent suit you, but it does work & if its failed YOU its not the method but its down to why it dosent suit you.
I cant "purist" clicker train, that dosent mean it dosent work, it means i dont have the patience to do it with the clinicness it requires. nothing wrong with the method, just dosent suit me.
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Location: Essex, UK
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 14,147
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19-12-2009, 10:48 AM
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Location: UK
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 7,723
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19-12-2009, 11:05 AM
The whole point in putting up the clips was to show the difference in the DOGS and their quality of life and enjoyment
Both methods will have needed a fair bit of time to train, both clearly worked - but I only have to look at the poor dog in the punishment clip to reinforce to me that punishment does not make for a happy dog (and more sad to say that the guy just couldnt see how unhappy his dog was - thought smackings its a$$ with the lead didnt bother it at all)
I also do not know of a single dog who (without training) values a tiny peice of cheese more than the environment or anything else, you have to make working with you fun and rewarding, when the distractions increase you have to make what they are doing even more rewarding
Punishing does not make you more attractive, and I disagree that that there is a situation where it is so important that a dog does something that it needs punished, you manage the situation until the dog understands what you want of it
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Location: Essex, UK
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 14,147
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19-12-2009, 11:37 AM
Originally Posted by Ben Mcfuzzylugs
Punishing does not make you more attractive, and I disagree that that there is a situation where it is so important that a dog does something that it needs punished, you manage the situation until the dog understands what you want of it
Either someone using these methods are very unconfident of their own abilities and covering with bluster, or they are pretty insensitive and don`t understand how their actions can inspire fear or pain in another creature. Remember the harsh teacher at school who put you off certain subjects for life? Look at the out-of-her-depth mother screaming and slapping at her children.
Dog owning (and training) is meant to be a pleasure. Not an excuse to become a bully.
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