Does nobody believe that a dog can actually be naughty? They are capable of making decisions of their own. No dog behaves 100% of the time and sometimes they might just decided to do the opposite of what you want because they would prefer to do something else. And before somebody pipes up that it's because they havent been trained properly or they dont respect you then I say poppycock. Dogs can and do behave naughtily at times end of story, and not in a "cheeky chappy" kind of way neither.

As for the rescue Dobermann, I no longer have him so he's never been subjected to my browbeating methods of training. He did things that werent acceptable but it was because he didnt know any better. He hadnt been trained that jumping up at the counters was wrong so there was no reason for him to get a smack because he wasnt being naughty. My dogs on the other hand have been trained that they cannot do this so if they were to do it then IMO, they were being naughty and (although in that situation I wouldnt smack them as the offense is not serious enough) a slap on the behind would be justifiable.

This is obviously a fairly emotive subject but IMO, people take things way out of context and then proceed to get on their holyier than thou high horses and shoot people down for not subscribing to their way of thinking

So.... you think it's okay to shock a dog with an ecollar, to improve a dog's quality of life? How have you done that if you expect your dog to walk to heel when it is in a field of sheep? You could have saved your money and put it on a lead...

OMG you are never going to give this up are you. He wouldn't of been walking nicely to heal he would bark and lunge at them wanting to chase them trust me I tried for almost a year to stop him from doing this.

Where I walk there is just open moor with sheep cattle and ponies on it, it not like I can say oh there sheep around this corner as they can be anywhere its rather hilly here so you can't look ahaed to see if sheep are there or not.
Most of the time my dogs are running around play fighting but if we happen to come across sheep which we always do I call them back to me and make them walk near me so they are not running around barking and play fighting near the sheep.
The dog that I used the collar on saw the sheep every day from 12 weeks old I thought they early introduction to them would mean that he had no intrest in them as this had worked with my other dogs but not him he got to 4 months and suddendly had a thing for them he would sniff the air a mile off and no they were there so I always had him on a 30 foot lunge line.
It was a right pain getting tangled up with the other dog as I often walk with 6 dogs
The shock from the collar has changed are walks for the better and I would use it again.

I didn't want to save money I wanted a dog that didn't want to kill sheep and thats what I have got. So I am very happy.

No, I won't give up on this in all honesty until these barbaric pieces of 'equipment' are banned.
It is up to you,IMO as the dog's handler, to sort the probelm without resorting to quick fix painful methods.

The thing is you can say lots of things are cruel to dogs.
People buying them then going out to work all day.
Over feeding so they are so fat they can hardly walk.
Never walking a dog just letting them in the back garden.
Its all a matter of opinion.
I mean my gran had the fatest west Highland terrier I have ever seen but if I suggested to her that it was not right her being so fat she could not lick her own bum then my gran would have a fit. My gran had to help lift her up the back step to the garden as she was so fat she could not get up on her own. Lots of people do cruel thing to dogs they always will.
But what I did to my dog Was not cruel IMO, but I do agree that they are open to abuse

we're not discussing canine obesity though, we're talking about the use of a shock collar to prevent sheep worrying. You inflicted pain on your dog, on purpose, you planned and executed it and that, to me, is cruel.
A quick google of stopping sheep worrying training threw this up...I'm sure she would know someone near yout hat could have helped you, or you could even have travelled to her...perhaps would have been a nicer thing to do for your dog and for your relationship with your dog.

http://www.dog-partnership.co.uk/livestock.htm

She doesn't suggest you ever have your dog offlead around livestock, nor does she condone the use of a shock collar...I would be asking questions about what aversives she uses but she seems pretty sound to me at first glance.

Having been a dog trainer for many years, I think the best way of looking at this is how the mother would treat the pup. The mother will nip, growl and shove pups that are misbehaving.

I have always just shaken the scruff and made a low throaty growl sound to any dog that needs it. It is what would happen in nature and therefore they respond to it very well. It doesn't make them afraid or nervous of you. In fact quite the opposite. They respond very well and become very respectful. There is no need to resort to physical violence in any way of whatsoever. I'm not saying there is anything really wrong with a tapped backside but the people who really 'smack' are the ones who are losing control and not the dogs.

Dogs respect discipline. That is a fact. But there are two types of dog owners. The ones who treat their dogs like dogs and the ones who treat their dogs like children. Unfortunately there are two many of the latter. Being firm, in charge and in control will pay dividends in the long run and it can all be achieved without the use of violence.

couldn't agree with that sentence more.

I've been following this with interest. Firstly with regards to shock collars, pronged collar or anything else that IMO is barbaric, one thing that sticks in my throat is the fact the dogs cann't speak so they do not have a choice. Some human comes along...one that they trust...and stick these things on them.
I wonder what us humans would have to say if someone did that to us....we'd soon be telling them where to go, but a dog has to suffer it, and why because the leader of the pack says so........
IMO these are quick fix things, saves the handler having to do anything, quick shock or two and away the handler goes....very lazy in my opinion. Same goes for smacking, that always fasinates me, because then the dogs become nervous about going to the handler, in turn the handler gets more annoyed and usually (and I've witnessed this) hits the dog more,abit of a merry-go-round cycle.
I understand that you want to walk your dog on common land where sheep graze etc., but I walk on common land too regularly, my dogs walk free, AND I have never used shock collars they are trained verbally....no smacks either.
However if I had one that wouldn't walk across the land without the fear of worrying sheep, then I would put that one on a lead.
There are other places to walk your dog too, that goes for every place people live, try the parks if your dog walks well without a lead, there are no sheep there......or are you saying that your dog will worry anything besides sheep.
I think smacking and electric collars etc., give the feeling of power to some people.....me I'd sooner have my results because my dogs want to please and are happy doing so.
I have three dogs (one being 5 months old) and the satisfaction I feel by just saying 'no' 'wait' 'leave' and seeing them look lovingly at me and doing it.....is awesome.
People buying these things are what keep the manufactures going.............
Also I foster teenagers who have more problems than any dog I've ever met, and if I was in the newspaper, headlines reading 'she put a shock collar on this child/she smacked' I'm sure you'd be one of the first to say.........she should go to prison and rot in hell....disgusting etc etc IMO there is no difference.

You've edited this post quite heavily since I commented on it(the part in bold was added).
It sounds to me (and no offence meant) that you wanted your dog off lead to make life easier for you, so you used a shock collar.
I'm afraid if I had been in your position I would have walked the dog alone and worked on it's sheep worrying traits away from your other dogs. I would also have looked for an experienced trainer to help me with the problem.

You still haven't answered my question though, if you get your dog to walk at heel when there are sheep close at hand, why not just put them on a lead for their safety and the safety of the sheep?