as a horse owner, IF your horse shows fear to anything, you must never avoid it, it could cost you your life, you begin intorducing the horse to it in a calm controled place, then just keep it going untill the horse doesnt see it as a threat anymore, I use the same theory on dogs, so my question is,,how do you get a dog over a fear if you avoid the object causing it?

as a horse owner, IF your horse shows fear to anything, you must never avoid it, it could cost you your life, you begin intorducing the horse to it in a calm controled place, then just keep it going untill the horse doesnt see it as a threat anymore, I use the same theory on dogs, so my question is,,how do you get a dog over a fear if you avoid the object causing it?

Thats not what he does though - he forces dogs in to confrontational situations which they can`t cope with but instead of letting them meet those situations in a way to desensitise them he uses force and pain so that the situation they fear is over-ridden by pain. It does`nt cure their fear as he claims, it just makes them too afraid to show that fear because it equals physical pain from the choker he uses in such a cruel way.
He either knows that he is just masking things but keeps quiet so as too fool people into thinking he`s worked a miracle, or he really does`nt have a clue about what he is actually causing.

Here`s what is being said by respected people in the dog behaviour world.

From : Talk Softly and Carry a Carrot or a Big Stick?
By Jean Donaldson, Director of The SF/SPCA Academy for Dog Trainers

http://www.urbandawgs.com/divided_profession.html

QUOTES FROM EXPERTS including

“Cesar Millan's methods are based on flooding and punishment. The results, though immediate, will be only transitory. His methods are misguided, outmoded, in some cases dangerous, and often inhumane. You would not want to be a dog under his sphere of influence. The sad thing is that the public does not recognize the error of his ways. My college thinks it is a travesty. We’ve written to National Geographic Channel and told them they have put dog training back 20 years.”
Dr. Nicholas Dodman - Professor and Head, Section of Animal Behavior
Director of Behavior Clinic, Tufts University - Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine

“Practices such as physically confronting aggressive dogs and using of choke collars for fearful dogs are outrageous by even the most diluted dog training standards. A profession that has been making steady gains in its professionalism, technical sophistication and humane standards has been greatly set back. I have long been deeply troubled by the popularity of Mr. Millan as so many will emulate him. To co-opt a word like ‘whispering’ for arcane, violent and technically unsound practice is unconscionable.”
Jean Donaldson, The San Francisco SPCA-Director of The Academy for Dog Trainers

"A number of qualified professionals have voiced concern for the welfare of pet dogs that experience the strong corrections administered by Mr. Millan. My concerns are based on his inappropriateness, inaccurate statements, and complete fabrications of explanations for dog behavior. His ideas, especially those about “dominance”, are completely disconnected from the sciences of ethology and animal learning, which are our best hope for understanding and training our dogs and meeting their behavioral needs. Many of the techniques he encourages the public to try are dangerous, and not good for dogs or our relationships with them ."
Dr. Suzanne Hetts, Certified Applied Animal Behaviorist
Co-owner of Animal Behavior Associates, Inc., Littleton, CO


"On his TV show, the main method Millan uses for aggression is aversives (leash jerks, kicks, snaps of the hand against the neck, and restraint, among others) applied non contingently. The aversives are non contingent because they are so frequent that they're not connected to any particular behavior on the part of the dog—the dog gets popped pretty much constantly. This results in a state called learned helplessness, which means the animal hunkers down and tries to do as little as possible. This is what Millan calls "calm submission." It's exactly the same thing you see in a rat in a Skinner box that is subjected to intermittent shocks it can do nothing to avoid. This can happen quite fast, by the way, shall we say in ten minutes? The dangers to the dog are obvious, ranging from chronic stress to exacerbating the aggression, i.e., some dogs fight back when attacked. This latter is the simplest reason that aversives are a bad idea in treating aggression. Even used technically correctly as positive punishment for specific behaviors like growling and snarling, aversives do nothing to change the underlying fear or hostility, so the best you can hope for, in the words of famed vet and behaviorist, Ian Dunbar, is "removing the ticker from the time bomb." Thus such methods substantially increase the risk to humans of getting bitten."
Janis Bradley, Instructor at The San Franciso SPCA Academy for Dog Trainers
Author of the book, "Dogs Bite"

Excerpt of letter from Lisa Laney, Dip. DTBC, CPDT, CBC to National Geographic before airing “The Dog Whisperer”:
“The intended program depicts aversive and abusive training methods - treatment for some serious anxiety and fear based issues - being administered by an individual with no formal education whatsoever in canine behavioral sciences. The "results" that are shown are more than likely not long lasting changes, but the result of learned helplessness, or fatigue, neither of which impact behavior to any significant long term degree - at least not in a good way. For those of us who are pioneering the effort to end the ignorance that drives the cruel treatment administered upon our canine companions, it is disappointing to see that this programming will reach the masses - especially on the NG Channel. The ignorance that this program perpetuates will give equally ignorant people the green light to subject their dogs to abuse. In turn these dogs will react even more defensively, will bite more people - and end up dead.”

"I have serious concerns because his methods are often intimidating rather than motivating. On TV, the dogs do comply but often they're being forced to - you can tell by their body language: tail down, mouth closed, ears back, eyes dilated... I argue that motivating leadership is far more effective than leading through intimidation."
Steve Dale
He's certified as a Behavior Consultant by the International Association of Animal Behavior Consultants, and the recipient of many awards including the prestigious AVMA Humane Award.




Noooo, thats just not true, not true at all. Thats what is so completely misunderstood about the old debunked dominance theory [ debunked by one of the original leading proponants of it who then realised he had been seeing it all wrong himself ].



Pack `leadership` in multidog households is often fluid, and even when its not, the dog which appears to be the `boss` through show of force or aggression is actually the one which is the least confident and not able to take a leadership role. The quieter more tolerant dogs are the ones which usually are the strongest as far as the rest of the pack are concerned, they can just give a `look` and its enough to make a more physically strong dog within a `pack` back off.



Which just proves how little he understands pack orientation



He`s talking out of his posterior. Dogs do not recognise humans as pack leaders, it does`nt work that way. Milan thinks pack leader = brawn or ability to inflict force through pain.
Thats not what makes a pack leader [ even if dogs did suddenly change to recognise a human as a pack leader which they wont, they know we are a different species ], all his methods are about is cowardice, he`s too gutless to throw away his force / pain inflicting tools and actually learn how to motivate and earn a dogs genuine freely given respect.



Throwing away his book would be a good start to ending your confusion imo
Dogs are dogs. Humans are humans. A human can never truly make themselves a dogs `boss`, they can think they can through force or intimidation, they can fool themselves about it, but their dog will never believe nor accept it where it matters - in the dogs soul

I have dogs who would have torn him apart if he`d tried his stuff on them, and even if he somehow managed to dodge their teeth and make them compliant, he would never in a million years have what I have with them - freely given trust and respect which goes both ways.




There have been a few already

I don`t think people are forgetting the other book and methods you mentioned, many have given their opinions on that one too and are not mixing up the two, its just that every time Milan is mentioned, human hackles let alone canine ones go up and bristle because many of us have seen right through his twaddle and cruelty - others who have`nt yet will hopefully get there in the end sooner or later [ sounds like you already have though ]

I too am a rider and I absolutely agree that with horses too - who of course are a completely different species from dogs, being herbivores and flight animals - benefit from firm handling and a refusal for them to be allowed to shy or bolt at a rattling tarpaulin. You ride that horse up to that tarpaulin and you make him walk calmly past. If he does so, he is rewarded with a pat and lavish praise, if he does not, you take him back and start again. Horses allow us to ride them because they think that we are stronger and superior to them, not because they love us and think we are wonderful. They also accept us on their backs because we look after them, feed them and give them shelter. They enjoy being ridden, else believe me they would not allow you on their backs, but to start with before they have been broken in, it must be very alarming for them.

Densensitising dogs in exactly the same way cannot be cruel, it is being a responsible dog owner.

as a horse owner, IF your horse shows fear to anything, you must never avoid it, it could cost you your life, you begin intorducing the horse to it in a calm controled place, then just keep it going untill the horse doesnt see it as a threat anymore, I use the same theory on dogs, so my question is,,how do you get a dog over a fear if you avoid the object causing it?

dogs Are not Horses.
If the horse was a dog who didnt want to face the Tarapline what would CM do Stick is "collar" around its neck & force it ,by force, to face its fear until it gave in, Id actually like him to try his methods on a horse or a cat
Good dog training is all about Trust,not fear or pure submission.