Clomicalm/Selgian for separation anxiety?

Just wondering if anyone had any experience of using either of these (or any other similar medication) for dealing with separation anxiety? Alongside a behaviour modification plan of course. I'm really struggling with Kiki at the moment, having reached a really good stage of having a whole week with barely any barking, now regressing to more barking than we've had in weeks. I know that the whole process can be very '1 step forward, 2 steps back' but she's even started whining overnight again which we haven't had since February and I'm wondering if it's time to consider medication alongside our training.
I've tried every non-prescription product I can think of - DAP, Pet Remedy, Calmex, Zylkene, a Thundershirt, Rescue Remedy, magnesium supplements, etc. with little to no effect (infact, DAP seems to make her more anxious)
I've got an appointment to discuss it with the vet tonight and to have blood samples taken to have a 'behavioural panel' done to rule out health issues (I don't think it is health-related as we've had a lot of improvement without any medical treatment) just so I'm confident that I am dealing with a healthy dog, I'm seeing one of the best vets in the practice so confident they will give me all the facts to help me decide, but would appreciate knowing other people's experience.

Ask for a full Thyroid Panel according to Jean Dodds protocol.

Also, if you are going to use products such as these they should be combined with a behavioural modification programme not in isolation.

I am at a talk on Thursday with a rep from CEVA and a behaviourist, so I will see if they can provide me with any more in depth info

Thanks SB. I am going to mention thyroid testing, I'm not sure what ones they have available but I am fortunate to be near to the practice that the Canine Film Academy uses for their monthly blood clinic (sent off to Jean Dodds) so have already had a brief conversation with Katie Rourke about having that done if necessary - I may wait and see what the normal results flag up, if anything, first as the clinics aren't done until the end of the month and may not be running this month anyway.
I have had a local trainer give some fab advice on the issue and they have given me a little input on the use of medication but not indepth (they haven't charged me a penny so appreciate their advice) and also feedback on the behavioural side of things so I think I've got that sorted (alongside Patricia McConnell and Nicole Wilde's books on the subject), I'm just wondering if medication will give us the upperhand as Kiki is still quite visibly anxious even when not barking.

There are of course side effects with both, which hopefully the vet will have fully explained; nothing in life is risk free.

Yes, I've seen quite a few listed online, which is why I don't want to try it until the blood tests are back - I know there can be some health-related side effects (e.g. on the liver) as well as behavioural (Kiki has fortunately got a good temperament but the separation anxiety had caused some reactivity on-lead - which seems to be easing off now she's not quite so anxious fortunately, otherwise I'd be more reluctant to use something like Selgian)

Thyroid-wise, Kiki doesn't really have many symptoms to suggest an issue but I know that it can often present with just a select few. From your experience, would you say it's often a cause of separation anxiety? I'm not entirely convinced because, as mentioned, we have had some improvement but I am prepared to have the tests done to rule it out.

According to my BSAVA Behavioural Medicine manual , there are 2 medications authorised for treatment of separation anxiety - Clomicalm and fluoxetine. Selegiline is licensed for emotional problems (which might include SA).

There is a delay in the onset of the action - sometimes 2-4 weeks or even longer.

Several studies have been done to ascertain the efficacy of Clomipramine in the treatment of SA problems with varying results.

A randomised, double blinded, placebo controlled study King et al (2000) - suggested the drug may be helpful (all dogs received a standared benaviour modification protocol). A similar but smaller study (Podberscek et al, 1999) which used a more detailed behaviour modification plan, found no difference between groups and concluded that behavioural therapy was highly effective on its own.

A large multi centred, double blind placebo study (Simpson et al, 2007) studied fluoxetine again with the behaviour plan, and after 8 weeks 73% of the dogs treated with med and behavior plan showed improvement in overall severity scores, compared to 51% of the dogs treated with placebo plus behaviour plan. Somedogs on the medication were lethargic and vomiting.

The medication has to be given daily, and not on an "as needed" basis. Drug therapy is usually given for 3 months at least and perhaps longer if the case is particularly difficult. Medication should be continued for one month beyond problem resolution.

Hope that's of some interest or use

I have had experience of a dog with huge separation issues who was on Clomicalm. This poor dog was crated and used to salivate, defecate, urinate, dig, bark and howl,from the moment his owners left ... the Clomicalm certainly helped with this and created what I'd call a "window of opportunity" for a behaviour plan to start working.

Have you thought of getting someone in to help? It might be easier and also if the plan wasn't working, the might be able to help you adapt it? Just a thought, you've probably already considered this Also are you certain the problem is not caused by some fear inducing event or noise phobia? 'You've probably already said, sorry, I can't remember!
It will be interesting to see what the tests results indicate .

Wys
x

Hi, it is sort of a vicious circle, I have not had personal experience of this but at the seminar on Saturday Jean Dodds elaborated on stress and hypothyroidism. ie the adrenal glands excrete cortisol into the system. If this is constant then it supresses the the pituitary gland's output of TSH which regulates the body's needs.

Your dog is a x of one of the breeds that are susceptible to develping thyroid related beahvioural problems eg Rottweiler in fact it comes 3rd on the list (in the US).

Anxiety is one of the most common behavioural signs of thyroid disorder.

So I guess what I am saying is better to rule it out then twiddle and twaddle and finally find out later?

I've just read about a study that showed no significant improvement with Clomicalm so it did give me some food for thought, I'm looking up other medications - I've seen Elavin/amtriptyline mentioned for SA too. I know that there are some sedative-type meds that are best avoided (sedate the body but not the mind) but have very limited knowledge on them really so I'm hoping the vet can give me some good starting info and I can do more research while waiting for the blood test results. He's probably the vet I trust the most as the practice really, I was going to specifically ask for him but happened to get offered an appointment with him anyway, he's very open to trying new things and doing research on conditions he's not familiar with (e.g. a diabetic degu I took in, or one of my rats with an usual thyroid tumour) so I'm hopeful that I'll get a good, balanced view on the various types. Will add fluoxetine to my list too..

I had a local trainer go through exactly what I was doing and give input, I am debating getting a behaviourist to actually come out (Clever Dog Company in particular) but I asked the trainer if she thought there was much else I could do and she didn't think so. Nicole Wilde's book is pretty indepth and I think the only major change I could make is not ever leaving her - but I've looked into local daycare and even if the cost wasn't prohibitive, I can't find anyone who accepts large breeds, they seem to be home-based and take small breeds only. Plus with Casper's reactivity/dog issues, I'd probably not be able to put him into daycare and I'd be worried about creating issues with him (though he's generally fine when left on his own). I'm not sure if kennels would work as it is the lack of human company that distresses her, she's got canine company with Casper, the boarding kennels I walked rescue dogs at didn't seem to have people hanging around that often, just during cleaning out and feeding times really. I guess it would at least prevent the association of being left at home but I don't know if it would cause more distress/anxiety in general
I've only taken 1 days leave at work this year so could take some time off but probably limited to maybe a fortnight - any longer would need sorting with colleagues and tend to be done as one-off arrangements because they're a real faff. I did have two weeks of working from home which I think helped but obviously it's only two weeks, so I'd like to save taking time off for the most effective point of treatment, e.g. if I start her on medication.

I'm recording her daily and some days do have potential triggers in a way - for example, I noticed a pattern on the day that the recycling boxes are collected, although we leave the boxes as far from the house as possible, sometimes they're put back on our doorstep for some reason and this has made Casper bark as well (he makes quite a convenient trigger-marker!). If Kiki's disturbed by something like that then it can change her mood from relative calm (calm for her - she's often not appearing totally relaxed) to anxious and then will spend the next 5 minutes winding up to pacing, scratching at the door and then eventually it can lead to barking.
Other days there's no apparent trigger, she can just seem to be on edge most of the day, seems to maintain a threshold of pacing for quite a while and then can eventually escalate to whining, then barking, then sometimes spinning.
The most frustrating for me are the days she can appear fine for hours and then suddenly winds herself up into a frenzy. She seemed to be getting better with these days, e.g. she'd only escalate from pacing to whining and then manage to calm herself down (lots of yawning, stretching, etc.) and would go back to sleep, but last week she just seemed to not be able to get back from the first spate of barking and was back to being on/off barking most of the day like she was initially.
Shutting her in the back part of the house makes her a lot worse though, so not convinced it's the noises at the front of the house winding her up. And I know that there are sounds throughout the day even when she's not pacing/barking so not convinced it's (entirely) noise-related, e.g. next door's dogs are quite vocal and are kenneled outdoors, the noise was near-constant a few weeks ago when the new pup was taking a while to settle in, and we only had a few days of Casper being unsettled by the noise before him and Kiki got used to it and they pretty much ignore it (and the dogs weren't outdoors until recently, so the behaviour started way before that). And there have been quite a few days where I've found mail on the hallway floor but neither dog has shown any acknowledgement of noise at the door all day.

I'm going to put one of the videos on my phone to show the vet just so he can see the behaviour for himself, I don't know how much dog behavioural experience he has (or other vets at the practice) as it's not something I've really gone to the vets for, but could be some extra input. He can, at least, do a referral to the Clever Dog Company if I go down that route.

Yes, that's my thoughts too really. Unless the blood tests flag up something that could be obviously causing the issue, I'm pretty sure I'll go for the thyroid testing anyway (or maybe even if the blood tests do show something, just to rule it out in addition to that). I'm pretty sure that she won't be distressed by having a blood sample taken so I'm thinking that there's no real negatives in having the tests done (but will wait and see how the first lot of taking blood goes)

Poor Kiki does sound generally rather anxious, although she sounds as if she has good days too

If as SB suggests then her cross is susceptible to hypothyroid problems, and anxiety is a symptom, and she is generally a bit anxious, it will be well worth doing the tests.

A trainer friend of mine's Dobe was eventually diagnosed as hypothyroid, but she had a struggle to get her vet to help out and after 2 years the dog was confirmed hypothyroid. I used to train regularly with her, and you'd not have noticed any particular problem. I think the main thing was her coat which sometimes showed a change of colour around her face

It might be an idea to not totally rule out noise/visitors/collectors causing, or at least exacerbating, the problem, if you've seen her get anxious from this ....It is hard if you can't move her to another room for the reasons you say as you feel she is just as bad (but could that be for other reaons? ie not used to the room, other dog in other room or whatever? I know you will have gone over these in your head anyway)

SA is a hard problem to work on, but if you do get referred to the Clever Dog Company you will be sure you have done everything, as they should be very good with SW at the helm as it were

Lots of luck!

Wys
x

Being nitpicky, Kiki does gain weight quite easily but does also lose it fairly easily. E.g. she put weight on when I first started leaving lots of Kongs down for the SA but once I adjusted the amounts (bulking out with veg for example) she soon got back to a healthy weight. She was actually more prone to being underweight when on kibble though and needed a fair bit more than recommended amounts, rather than me struggling to keep weight off her. She has also had dry skin in the past but her skin and coat are currently pretty healthy looking, so not sure if that's more of an environmental thing (e.g. weather/heating in the house). But I know from DP that thyroid testing is often recommended for behavioural issues so it is something at the front of my mind.
The confining to one room was something we did when we first moved and perhaps due to it being new and not somewhere she felt comfortable but having tried it very recently (we re-did some paintwork in the living room so shut them in the kitchen overnight) she wasn't happy in there at all, kept whining and must have eventually managed to open the babygate herself as I came down in the morning to two mutts in the living room! I've never seperated them physically so when she was confined, it was with Casper as company. The neighbour didn't have their newer pup at the time either and the first pup isn't really that vocal, it's mostly the second pup making the noises nowadays, so don't think there was an obvious sound-trigger back then (neighbours both side work fulltime and we don't back onto anything but trees and fields so no immediate noises at the back of the house)

When I first stopped confining them to the kitchen, it actually had a huge effect and she was 200% better - a bit anxious but no pacing, whining, etc. - the only real habit she retained was pulling the runner rug up by the hallway door but that was something I could cope with! Unfortunately after a couple of weeks she lapsed back to nearly as bad as the start, so I'm not sure that there's a daily trigger because why the 2 weeks of being (mostly) fine?

Unfortunately our lives don't make for entirely predictable routines (OH, being an engineer, has hours that vary every week/day - so at least he's often home for the dogs but it means that she has to deal with being left alone at differing times each day) but generally things are kept the same so the unpredictability of her behaviour could be down to external triggers but it's hard to tell without having another camera set up watching out of the window or a fancy microphone that could pick up every last sound (sound quality of the laptop's one isn't great, though it does pick up the neighbour's phone ringing and car doors shutting outside etc). Just frustrating that we seemed to have great progress the other week and then such a relapse last week for no apparent reason - maybe the Bank Holiday? I have also not been running with her for the last month and a bit because of an injury but I've been lengthening walks and going to the local park so that they have have a bit of a potter around on the length of their Halti training leads. I need to sort out the bike I've been given and give cycling with her a go to see if getting back to running helps matters, I've tried every place I can think of locally (tennis courts, parks, schools, riding arenas, etc) to find safe off-lead places but no luck.

If only there was a real Dr Doolittle who could tell her that it's OK, I'll be home soon, just sleep the day away like Casper rather than stress out