Cheers Tassle

can you run me thru the actual protocol just to make sure we are on the same wavelength.

cheers for your feedback.

Relaxed down/default down.
Start usually with a Mat - NO verbal command. Often helps if the owner is sat as well.
Usually a hand cue, as the dog hits the position, food placed between the feet, and continues to do so for the duration of the training session. (2-3 mins)
I do not use any verbal, visual or tactile interactions yet.

Repeated until when the mat comes out the dog lies down. (usually takes 3/4 sessions) depending on the dog.

Then start to drop off the food rewards and use eye contact and/or verbal. (Depends on how 'wired' the dog is and how they respond to the levels of praise).

Everything kept very calm, chilled voices, gentle brief eye contact.

Once the dog can hit the relaxed down on the mat I start to move it to other places. Working up to outside.

(To be fair, I use a Mat with a lot of people in classes - I have never used on with my own dogs, I expect them to do it where ever without that kind of cue.)

Teaching this way, the relaxed down becomes a 'when in doubt' position. If the dog does not know how else to get your attention, they lie down. This is only an issue if the owner fails to recognise it for what it is. Dogs will start to use the down as a default when they are confused about what is being asked of them.

Tug/sit -

I used with Tassle for her d-d issues - she was not a food dog at all.
We have one special toy - only used or these training sessions or walks. Usually something soft - plaited fleeces are great.
The Sit has to be 100%.

Start the Tug.....really really exciting, then when the dog starts to become interested ask for a Sit. Remain totally still, calm voice etc, until the dog sits and releases the toy (these may not happen simultaneously - however remaining calm and keeping the dog in a sit will eventually lead to the dog releasing the toy)
The instant the dog has done both of these things - the game starts up again.

As the dog gets quicker at the sit and release, the sit becomes longer.

The idea being you are purposely getting the dog into a high state of arousal to teach it how to snap out of it.

...so - for a training session, I would walk her to the point, just before you notice her first reaction. And practice the relaxed down. Then do some tug/release, then another session of relaxed down, then come home.
Probably have a game at home or similar as I expect her frustration will be quite high.

I am tired so forgive me if this does not make sense.

Im going to answer and then read the rest of the thread - so sorry if I repeate
Just my tuppenceworth

She sounds very like Mia

The female sounds like she has done a great job in the woods - but with the other dogs that is a totaly different thing

imo if the dog is reacting then she is too close to learn
Its difficult when its a house they have to pass
I had this to a small extent with Ben and a house of huskeys we had to pass who always bark like mad when we walk past

Ben had got to the stage that he was barking before they even started

What I did was walk as far away from the house as I could and before he got to the point where he barked I shovled treats into his gob so quick he couldnt bark, walked past house with him munching totaly
For the next week I did that
Then over the next couple of weeks I slowly reduced the treats, but always enough so he was focused on me as we walk past
Now when he hears them bark he looks to me and is calm

But that is only possible if she is calm enough to get that close

Other thing I would do is just drive elsewhere for a walk
Do lead walking in an area with more space where they can control seeing other dogs and keep her below threshold

Possibly go out every day and walk down the street towards the other dog, stop way before she reacts and reward her, and posibly do some calm clicker tricks, then turn round and go home

Also do lots of impulse control games - like playing tug then stopping cold and not carrying on again till she is sitting calmly

Hope all that makes sense - I am sure you had way better ideas already

Sigh
So how is she 'misbehaving'?
The danger with corrections here (as the expert here you should know) is that she can start associating the other dog with the corections and she will actually become aggressive, also if the barking is supressed she will become stressed around other dogs but have no means of comunicating it - and one day she could be pts for an unprovocked attack

Do you have a video of that? I try and not have mia in thos situations any more - and she is 99% better now, but I remember her at the begining and any lead slackness just let her get closer, she would take up the slack in a split second

Yes I guess a kind of the chilout game was what I was talking about
I use the exercises in the 'control unleashed' book, which sound v similar to what you are saying
The go to your place matt - where the dog is shaped for going there and lots of calming things happen there
Then upping the distractions there also makes it an impulse control, when you have a dig chilled out on that matt while you are running around like a loon dropping treats and toys

and yup I do the tug release too - but I dont ask for the sit, just let them shape the behaviour themselves with a uncued default sit or down, that way they have to think tru the excitment themselves to get what they want but asking for a sit I can see will be great for getting them to listen to commands when they are excited

If she took up the slack, id take a step back & stop"throw " again, they soon stop trying, one or two times max. No vids sorry you need a decent size/length lead

Its so hard to explain, sorry, i reach forward & sort of drop all tension out of the lead. Honetly the way i do it, they rarely take up the slack more than once or twice.

Its abit like having shortish rein on a horse but no contact,

Can you do "gentle" wrists?

hello mishflynn

sorry, havent had time to process your posts yet.
except to pick up on the 'im not giving you any backup son' standpoint.

that isnt the issue with this dog, she isnt gobbing to see off the dog, she is gobbing to get to the dog to fulfill her uncontrolled social need.

Just teach it a recall then!

im talking about on the lead.

does this mean now you realise the barking lunging etc is friendship based, your original plan is void?

its not just a shepherd thing, their is a collie component as well.
she is basically a fizzy wired thing.
indoor and out and in the car.

for example, she went for a walk today in the countryside.
in the carpark she saw people so started gobbing off at an approaching man.
the female handler walked back behind the car until the man walked by. but whilst still standing in the same spot and knowing the man had gone, she continued barking anyway, just out of general excitement, adrenaline and frustration.
the handler then carried on walking up the track to walk her out of the barking, which worked.

Yes void. Tbh i didnt read the first post properally, my bad-but im sure you know why
id want the eye contact in that case, first.
Id teach her a every good watch me & get her into toys.
I may get her to hold a toy to stop her barking.

But mainley id be looking to changing the owner/dog relationship, not putting a sticking plaster over the problem.

Or i might do something completley different

TBH without working with the dog its hard to say.

The problem then with this dog is that the owners need to build up their relationship with the dog. hat is what id now be working on.

Why are you asking all this anyway? what would YOU do?