Dog growls at others..

Hi all,

My saluki bitch has just turned 3 rs old. She's done her Gold Good Citizen, and does agility.

Problem is, she growls at other dogs, and when I let her off the other day, she ran up to a dog barking. She was wearing a muzzle- as a sight hound, we don't let her off without one. She did leave the dog alone when i ran up to her and really yelled, but I was very shaken.

She growls at other dogs when we walk past when she's on the lead too...doesn't pull toward them, just growls. She actually shakes, and I think it's born out of fear.

She won't take a treat as distraction during this when other dogs walk past- as a hound she's not particularly food orientated. She's much better than she was- she used to pull the lead and bark. In fact, she growls so quietly, no one else can really hear her. Some days, she's good, and she just trembles, with a slight grr under her breath, other days she really growls.

She never growls at dogs she's met properly before, and she never growls at my boyfriends dogs etc. She also never growls at any dogs whilst showing.....

At the moment, I'm making her lie down when they go past, with a hand on her back for reassurance, and talking to her. I tell her 'no' when she growls. After she went for the dog the other day, I pushed her to the ground to make her submit, as her mother would have done and as I've been told by a respected trainer in the area. Whilst my methods are working most of the time, could anybody else shed some light, and perhaps offer some advice?
Thanks all!

Hiya.

Hope you don't mind me asking some questions to get a better picture.

Has your dog ever hurt another dog? when did you decide to keep a muzzle on her and for what reasons? Did she bite another dog?

have you had her from a pup? Has she always been like this or was their an incident that set it off? What do you do when she is growling, e.g. do you distract in a nice light voice or get her to lie down with a low stern voice?

If a dog is afraid, it has 3 options, run away, fight or freeze. Your dog can`t run away because she`s on a lead, can`t fight because you`re holding her down and is being forced into the least safe option - to freeze. Because she is still terrified she`s growling a warning. What would you do if a big scary guy with a knife swaggered up to you and you were being held down?
If a dog is aggressive through arrogance, bolshieness or bad manners I can understand the submission tactic. But not for a frightened dog, sorry.
I think you should be building up your dog`s confidence by rewarding her for not reacting to dogs. I`d lose that trainer TBH and maybe find a kinder one.

Sorry i can't have read this bit before? If she is scared of other dogs you having a go at her isn't going to help her at all as she is even more threatened, as her protector is having a go at her aswell!

Personally i would loose the trainer too - pushing her to the ground to make her submit is not something her mother would do in a situation like this! If her mother was around and there was another dog she would most likely stay out of it or have a go at the other dog! Neither of which i think you should do.

Dominating your dog and making them submit is dated advice and modern methods rely more on teaching the dog clearly what you want from them, in a kind way, rather than punishing (which pushing her to the ground is) for doing something that we don't want. It is much easier if the dog knows what we want rather than what we don't want as there are hundres of choices of things that we don't want them to do.

Personally i would think that the advice you have been given such as muzzling her, shouting, telling her no and pushing her down is going to make the situation worse and her anxiety levels much higher. when a dog is anxious they cannot learn.

I would find a trainer or even better a qualified behaviourist in your area who uses only kind modern methods. You can find them by looking on www.apdt.co.uk or www.apbc.org.uk.

However respected the trainer may be she will only be respected by people who like her methods, i am sure their are loads of people who would disagree with her methods.

Hi,

Thanks for everyone's replies.

My dogs have always been muzzled, in all the time we've had the, every single one if muzzled. It's pretty common practice in our breed. They're big hunting dogs, with a very strong chase and course instinct. They course each other in the garden., and can be very rough especially as there's quite a few and they play pack games. Also, we let them off on National trust land- if they kill a squirrel, deer, bunny there, we could get done. She's always been muzzled, and Im not sure how that could make the situation worse? She doesn't know any different. Sh'es never hurt another dog. Obviously she's not muzzled in our house or in the yard when they're all outside, and she's not muzzled when on a lead either.

I ask her to lie down before the dog gets there Catrin, and talk to her nicely, only sayind 'No' when it gets close enough to growl.

Also, I don't SHOUT at her, I tell her. I say 'Nooo', she stops, and I say 'Good girlie' and that's when I reassure, as I said I talk to her gently. She just doesn't stop till it's nearly past most of the time, or if she does stop she starts again a few seconds later.
Ok yes, I yelled the other day to get her attention off this other dog.
I'd also like to clarify, I did not SHOVE her to the ground, I pushed her-only fractionally harder that you would on a puppie's bum when they were learning sit, as she was too fired to listen to me when I said 'down'.

Right, ok, you guys think to lose the trainer....fair enough, everyone's opinion and I asked for it. However, if as I say she's improving, and these are the methods I've been using, how is that really a bad thing?

Clareanddaisy- you say to reward her for not reacting, but how do I get her to not react? That's why i've been saying 'no', adn then as I said, talking to her nicely when she does stop. But, as above, she never stops for very long.

I know I said I believe it's born out of fear, but other think differently, as she's worse with other people, than with me. And if she's off the lead, she doesn't run away. So the idea of fight freeze or run away doesn't work with her. She's got the option of running, but doesn't.

Think I've answered everyone's questions. Thanks for your help so far.

You get her to not react by practising regularly with a trainer who uses positive methods and builds up how long she can concentrate on you with out looking away, and then bring the trainers dogs in the distance and you practise keeping her attention. It is a very long process but it works as you gradually bring her confidence up with other dogs and her confidence in being able to ignore them and concentrate on you and trust you.

I think we are coming from completely different training backgrounds as you say you only push her as you would when teaching a puppy to sit down, but puppies don't need to be pushed to taught to sit down, and in fact they shouldn't be because any pressure on the bum makes them push against it. They are pushing as you are pushing, they have the distraction of you pushing on them and it makes the process of learning to sit much harder and takes longer.

Muzzles can make the issues harder as the dogs can feel threatened and vulnerable as one of their ways of protecting themselves has been taken away. Has she ever met dogs without a muzzle, as a puppy and played with them?

Other less positive methods can work over time, and you say you are getting some progress, but more positive methods can work faster and can give the dog a greater understanding of what you want and can give far more stable long lasting results.

Hi,
Thanks Catrin- I've had a look on there and will ring some local people in the morning. I can understand your point about supposed 'gentler' methods working longer.

The keeping her attention on me bit..how do you suggest I do that when as I say she's not particularly food orinentated, and as a breed, they do not fixate on toys.


We never let anyone else's dog come and play with ours and not have them muzzled too. I don't think it's fair. Ours play in the yard and house unmuzzled, and they'll gently play with each other on their long leads unmuzzled too, and friends dogs often come in the yard too too, and they aren't muzzled, so she plays gently with them. But the real rough housing and galloping and coursing each other is in the paddock, and no, we don't muzzle ours and not expect the others to be muzzled. I'll let this dog and my elderly one play in the paddock as a pair with boyfriends small yorkie, as they don't chase each other, they simply play with her, and they're gentle.

Actually, on the sitting point, the first times we said 'sit', we touched theirs bums down to the floor, and treated them and praised them. All of my dogs, a supposedly untrainable breed learnt to sit with the first few days, and all get treat trained.

That sounds like a good idea. The newer methods make much more sence than older more dicatorial methods when you see them in practise.

I understand the thing about site hounds being rough players and having a high prey drive etc, and I am not suggesting it for your adult dogs now but maybe for the next puppy you get, but even so they really do benefit from being to socialize with dogs their own age as young puppies. I don't mean full on long periods of play, as this can make nervous ones more nervous and bolder ones can practise being bullied, but in a good APDT class the puppies should have short periods where they have to pay attention to their owners first and then the owners can take them to say hello to another dog calmly, and move away again if things start to get a bit excited. Understandably you are working with breed characteristics of each dog but we get a whole range of dogs coming through our classes who learn to play in acceptable gentler ways and pay attention to their owners, including all sorts of site hounds. Obviously, giving the choice many of the site hounds want to back and the dogs to make them run, chase and nip them to go faster!

It is more difficult with dogs you are not food orientated but there are ways. Some people try with other types of food ie liver, cheese, adn keep going until they find something that really floats their dogs boat, some people also only ever train, initially, when their dog is hungry, and some even feed all most all of their dogs food as treats for training, so the dog really learns that it has to do things for you if it wants food. usually once they have learnt this and get really tuned into you and doing things for rewards you can return to normal feeding. You keep praticing with no distractions and then gradually build up the distractions.

Clicker training is also great and because the message is so clear and precise the dog quickly works out exactly what it is being treated for. The message seems to get through much clearer and quicker.

Good luck with the website, if you are not sure why she behaves this way it might be worth while getting someone who is a behaviourist as well as a trainer so that they can asses your dog and find out if it is aggression, over excitement, inappropriate (in our and other dogs eyes) play.

Good luck, and let us know how you get on!

Yes, unfortunately that is also a myth by some trainers that certain dogs can't be taught to do certain things, but, as you have prooved they can! Of course long backed dogs often prefer to stand, but dogs can do all sorts reguardless of their breed!