Little dog growls at friends big dog help

Hello, Dave is a cross Bichon / chiuahaha, so is a very small dog (he is 3 years old). We have tried to take him to my mates house who owns a german shepherd (Ivan - who is 18 months old) and make them friends etc.....

it didnt go well !!

It started when Dave ran away and Ivan tried to stamp on him. Dave now growls at Ivan whenever he is anywhere near him. I think the main problem is Ivan is very curious of Dave and wants to play but Dave doesnt know how.
We were outside with them last night and put them on the floor. Ivan came straight over to see Dave but he immediately growled and then barked as he got closer, It then looked like Dave tried to bite Ivan.
Ivan did occasionly bark at Dave but no way near as much as Dave.

We have this problem with Dave at the park in that he seems very curious of other dogs but doesnt seem to know how to interact with them. It seems he likes to sniff them on his terms but if they go to sniff dave he looks very frightened and hides behind our legs and if they approach him too quick he growls.

Dave has kinda made friends with a labrador (ellie). Ellie lets dave come and sniff her and is a lot more placid than Ivan who is quite playful.

We are gonna try and take them for a walk together later as we havent done that yet.

Ramble over, but is there anything we can do to sort this or should we just give up on Dave and Ivan being friends.
My friend seems to think we should just leave them to it (whilst supervised) as we kept picking dave up when he was getting too agressive. However we are reluctant to because if ivan went for him he wouldnt stand a chance.

I will add both dogs have been neutered.

Many thanks
Lee

from dave's point of view, he is scared of dogs, especially if they tower above him.

it stands to reason he would try and bite a big clumsy goon like ivan...he is no doubt crapping himself.

you shouldnt put him in that situation really.

you cant make dogs friends, you cant force the issue.

parallel walking using loose relaxed leads, known calm stooge dogs, lots of treats and praise, and no direct eye or body contact, should be the first things you do.

for now, id leave it, dave has probably been burnt by ivan few times too many.

in the meantime, id google APDT UK, UKRCB,
COAPE, or APBC to find yourself a good trainer or behaviourist whom can show you slow confidence building techniques to treach Ivan to accept other dogs.
or get a referral for a good positive reward based trainer from your local vet, rescue centre, dog owners you trust, etc.

a big bouncy barky off lead adolescent GSD is probably about stage 20 or something.

im guessing you keep ivan on a short or tense lead and/or pick him up a lot around other dogs?
if so, that adds to the problem.

Well if someone ten times bigger than me tried to play, I'd think I'd bark too! I agree that picking him up could make it worse as it almost tells the little one that there is something to be scared of. Walking them together is a good idea. On lead to start with and see how they go. I hope they get along soon.

i agree with the last post, but from the description, the little one is already scared of Ivan and most dogs anyway.
So its not the picking up during the situation thats the issue, its the whole situation in the first place.

personally, i think dave has been giving off messages for a long time as regards other dogs, so they need to go right back to basics and start off with a complete new approach and procedure (hence the need for coaching) which means quiet placid dogs like the lab are the very beginning of the process and loud bouncy dogs like the GSD are the end of the process (which could be months away).

i think even walking Dave with Ivan at this point in time would be counter productive, as Dave already has a strong fear of Ivan, so you need to start off with dogs Dave isnt scared of, so he can build up his confidence around other dogs.
Like anything in life, starting confidence building exercises in or around any situation that evokes the specific fear response, however small that response may be, is counter intuitive.

I agree with Krusewalker ~ sensible advice. You need to start to build Dave's confidence with other calm & placid dogs first. By trying to make him accept Ivan, you risk making the whole situation with other dogs worse.

I help at dog training classes & on Saturday we had a 4 month old mini schnauzer that had become very barky around other dogs. The barking started as soon as she saw another dog even at about 30 yards away. She'd had a few quite scary (to her) experiences with other adult dogs, where she'd been knocked over, bundled out of the way or had too much attention from them. Nothing horrible really, but to this little dog, it was just too much & so her way of coping was to shout "go away" very loudly!!

Her owner was despairing as whilst this little dog was now coping with the other on-lead pups in training classes, she was still scared & barky out & about. Saturday's training session was in the local park so I took my 2 dogs along, knowing they are bomb proof with young & annoying puppies. They totally ignored the schnauzer's barking & rushing at them, they laid down when I told them, & ignored her when she felt brave enough to come up & sniff my dogs. They said hello to her calmly & allowed her to jump at them & within a few minutes, she was completely relaxed with them. We all walked round the park after the training session & the little scnauzer stuck to my dogs like glue. If they stopped to sniff, so did she, if Wilma chased her ball, the schnauzer ran with her, if Barney peed up a tree, the schnauzer got a yellow head . It built her confidence so much that I've agreed to meet the owner again to help with the schnauzer's socalisation.

So if you can find a calm, relaxed & easy-going older dog that can pout up with Dave, then this would be a great place to start.

im guessing you keep ivan on a short or tense lead and/or pick him up a lot around other dogs?
if so, that adds to the problem.[/QUOTE]

Hi thanks for the reply, no hes on one of those extension cord leads. No we have only really picked him up around ivan because of the size difference.
I take its a bad thing to pick him up around other dogs ?

Yeah ive been thinking about getting in a behaviourist to look at Dave. Ive only been in daves life about 6 months as hes my girlfriends dog and reading up on things i think shes got a few things wrong with dave and im trying to correct them now.

Hi,

I agree with the other posts. What I'd also suggest is if possible, allow Dave to meet other dogs (of all sizes) in a calm and relaxed way. Maybe both Dave and Ivan could go for a walk separately to drain a littel bit fo that excitable energy they all start off with. Then when that's done they could meet at the end of their respective walks, away from either house jsut for a few minutes. Once you've had the first meeting and nothing untowward happens, you can build on the time they spend together adnstart walking together.

It could be that you never actually get them into the same house at the same time, but over time they can become friends when out and about.

GSDs are known for playing the "splat" game. They use their feet to play, they can't help it. So Ivan doesn't understand most liekly that there's a little dog that approaches him and when he plays, Dave backs away. He's probably as confused as Dave in a different way.

Take a long time allowing the 2 to get to know each other and I'm sure they will be fine. I also agree with contacting a reputable qualified trainer or behaviourist. make sure they have the relevant certification and contact the organisations they say they've qualified with too. The reason I say this is because I've done some of the assessment and exams with COAPE but am in no way qualified to help dogs with behavioural issues or training needs. I know there are others out there who do a few of the lower level/easier assessments and then try to make out they're qualified when they're not. If you end up with someone like that, they can do more harm than good.

Good luck.

Laura xx

equally, ive met some people that have done the highest COAPE qualification and others that have done the southampton uni degree, but whom had barely trained a dog in their lives, yet still threw reams of academia at the client, ending up offering the most inappropriate professional standards and giving the most horrendous advice.

so its swings and roundabouts really

Just an update - my girlfriend took Dave out for a walk with Ivan and my mates girlfriend last night.


Apparently Dave initially growled but after that they were fine and even ended up sitting quite close to each other at the end of the walk. I was amased when the gf told me this after the episode the night before !!!

Think we will keep walking them together and take it slowly before trying them both in the garden again so as to build daves confidence up around Ivan.

Hi there,

You've been given some excellent advice on this thread and it's great to hear that Dave and Ivan had a good walk together.

I have a similar issue with one of my Affenpinschers, Enzo. To start with you really need to see things from Dave's perspective, I'd suggest lying down on the floor and allowing Ivan to swat you on the head!

The only thing I wanted to add is that I find Enzo is much more reactive on lead, as it restricts the flight instinct so he switches immediately to warning the other dog off. Is Dave on lead all the time? How's his recall? Maybe he could experience more positive interactions with other dogs if he could be off-lead when he might be more relaxed?

J.