So Benjie isn't DA then, anymore. Could you let him off with another dog (male) and have no probs?

Most sensitive dogs find a firm voice hugely aversive, especially working breeds. In fact the whole tone of voice training system is based around usung the voice as an aversive and as a reinforcer (by changing the tone or volume).

Adam

No, Benjie is still DA - I'm not the only one who walks him - he just responds better to my lead than anyone elses - including my OH - whose dog he is. And the constistancy is kept the same - the training is kept the same but he and the otehr two still know me as their trainer and will do as they are told - despite what voice I use. As it is we have to use a choker on him - just a gentle tug and then the rest of the time it's treats and I HATE using the choker on him, but it's the only thing that will work - we've tried the Halti, canny collar, treats alone and nothing except a quick gentle tug on the choker snaps him out of it.

Now if I stuck a shock collar on him - I'd get a scared dog who wouldnt trust me and would just be scared to put a foot wrong.

My whole argument is - shock collar = scared dogs with little trust in humans and then it'll end up in some shelter somewhere and then someone else has got to build up that trust with that dog and spend hours and hours of training to undo what some idiot did with a shock colalr - all in the name of a quick fix and trainers who use them have little knowledge and little intrest in the dog - just money and yes Adam I do believe that is all you are - a rubbish trainer whose looking for a quick fix and a way to make money from these naive, barbaric owners who dont actually care about their dogs! I could easily stick a collar around Benjie's neck and see teh results - but he'd still go back to teh way he was like Jacca will - believe it or not. And another point - DOGS SHOULD NOT BE OFF LEAD IN LIVESTOCK FIELDS! it is against the law so for you to be training that is just ridiculous - you're the reason why some of these idiots with dogs who have seen these methods "work" have dead dogs now because the farmer has shot them.

I think my rant is over now...wait..wait ... stop pulling all this crap out of nowhere, go to training classes to become a PROPER trainer with PROPER methods that are useful in this DAY AND AGE - you're not fooling anyone on here.

no argument from me Clair.

i already have that position.

i was specifically asking if any else didnt get the meaning of my specific post above?

which leads me to.....



....it seems i do owe Adam an explanation after all, as doberman doesnt understand my post either.

Hi Dobie.

Ok quick point, this threads now really hard to follow so am answering it as I go, hence all these quotes.

I am indeed saying that Adam says that the stress of waiting on a treat is equal to that of a shock collar.
Because that is indeed what he said on the ecollar thread.
However, the latter part of your post is not what i am saying at all.
No offence dobie, my bad.
That was the point of this thread.

So as Adam asked me to explain again, here goes:

Adam says the dog feels stress as he has to wait to get his reward (toy, treat, play, whatever).
He has to do so because he has to perform the behaviour first.
Adam cited a recall as an occasion the dog feels stressed.
Adam says he is stressed all the way back to you, as he doesnt get his treat straight away.

Adam goes on to say that this stress is equal to the stress a dog feels from an ecollar.

(As a side note, it is interesting to point out that Adam now admits that dogs feel stress from ecollars. Im not to sure if he noticed that )

Anyway, we would then all ask Adam how come the reward traned dog looks happy when it is charging up to up to you on a recall, for example?
Adam states this is because the excitement..ie, the expectation of receiving the reward...masks the stress signs.

Adam would then say this is why you can see the stress signs when ecollar training, but not reward training.

I state that this is a convenient get out clause.

I also state, like everyone else, that this is clearly not logic, sense, or a basic understanding of emotion.
So i gave an analogy:
I might be gagging all night for santa to bring me a present.
That may technically be labelled stress, but it is clearly "good stress". As it is related to the joy and pleasure of expecting something nice.
Therefore it is 'stress' associated with nice warm feelings inside, which naturally isnt the same as the associated feelings of foreboding and fear i may feel knowing i am about to receive an electric shock!
And that IS all the 'argument' you really need to know!

However, here was the point of my post that Adam and others may have misunderstood:

I then went on to play devils' advocate, and said lets assume for a moment that adam's argument is right.

What i am saying is that adam's very own argument disproves his theory!

That is because thus:

a) the dog runs for the treat but does not 'show' the stress, as the 'feelings' of excitment/joy/pleasure of expecting something masks the 'feelings' of stress

b) the dog gets an ecollar stim (what we call electric shock), and does show the stress, as his dog jacca did in the video.

Now, and this is the biggeee:
If we assume that both dogs are feeling stressed, then surely the stress the "reward dog" feels is way lower than what the "ecollar dog" feels, otherwise the ecollar dog would be feeling enough happiness/excitement/expectation to also mask his stress signs!

Obviously he doesnt, as he is not happy with his expectation of an event as the reward dog is.
ie, he is not happy knowing an electric shock is due!

And therein layeth the irony of Adam's own argument, which he has missed.
Therefore, you dont need to rely on our argument stating why the expectation of someting good is not the 'suffering of stress' etc etc.
As adam has done the job for us!




precisely!

1st point. But how long and how well has someone to have actually tried to 'proof' them before moving on to an E-collar? i.e. they taught the behaviour/label etc at home, done it at home, done somewhere quiet, done it somewhere a little busier and so on, taken a step back when needed, broken things down further in the new environment etc changed the reward to whatever motivates the dog and so on...before deciding an e-collar is needed?

2nd point. But dosnt that just mean that they have gone too far too fast and expected too much too soon from the dog? Similar to my comments regarding point one? i.e. the dog hasnt been sufficiently 'conditioned' in differing environments properly therfore dosnt respond as should once distractions are there.

Not sure I understand what you are looking for Adam. Peer review of any of the three studies are currently unavailable because, of course, the studies are still underway and you can't review something as yet unfinished and unpublished.

If you're talking about Carthy's rants, most of his websites have been taken down now (by the hosting sites themselves), but the last time I looked a few still remained.
Most people take them with a pinch of salt - the guy is clearly unbalanced

If you read on you will have seen that she DID have a very good future due to the people who took her on being committed and caring enough to work with her and us to provide that future and to keep her happy and 'up' during her training.

You, of course, wouldn't understand the concept of 'up' in dog training.

Has Denis offered you future shares in e collar sales? Is that why you are posting his videos and acting as his mouthpiece on here---are you doing it on all the forums he has been banned on? Do you realise what you are getting into?

How tall are you----just for my own interest you understand

rune failed as well! Next time then.

No, Benjie is still DA - I'm not the only one who walks him - he just responds better to my lead than anyone elses - including my OH - whose dog he is. And the constistancy is kept the same - the training is kept the same but he and the otehr two still know me as their trainer and will do as they are told - despite what voice I use. As it is we have to use a choker on him - just a gentle tug and then the rest of the time it's treats and I HATE using the choker on him, but it's the only thing that will work - we've tried the Halti, canny collar, treats alone and nothing except a quick gentle tug on the choker snaps him out of it.

Now if I stuck a shock collar on him - I'd get a scared dog who wouldnt trust me and would just be scared to put a foot wrong.

My whole argument is - shock collar = scared dogs with little trust in humans and then it'll end up in some shelter somewhere and then someone else has got to build up that trust with that dog and spend hours and hours of training to undo what some idiot did with a shock colalr - all in the name of a quick fix and trainers who use them have little knowledge and little intrest in the dog - just money and yes Adam I do believe that is all you are - a rubbish trainer whose looking for a quick fix and a way to make money from these naive, barbaric owners who dont actually care about their dogs! I could easily stick a collar around Benjie's neck and see teh results - but he'd still go back to teh way he was like Jacca will - believe it or not. And another point - DOGS SHOULD NOT BE OFF LEAD IN LIVESTOCK FIELDS! it is against the law so for you to be training that is just ridiculous - you're the reason why some of these idiots with dogs who have seen these methods "work" have dead dogs now because the farmer has shot them.

I think my rant is over now...wait..wait ... stop pulling all this crap out of nowhere, go to training classes to become a PROPER trainer with PROPER methods that are useful in this DAY AND AGE - you're not fooling anyone on here.

I don't see the logic of it, the dog still feels the stress, you just can't see it.

Adam, if you can't see it, what makes you so convinced that the dog feels stress?

You are making an illogical assumption based on nothing more than your own thoughts which appear very strange in light of the extreme lack of justification for them

Thats good for her, but if they hadn't come along.... another statistic staff I bet.

I'm not an e collar dealer.

Bout 6' 4''

Adam