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Chris
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07-11-2010, 11:05 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
I prefer a balanced approach using a combination of rewards as well as the collar.
'Balanced approach' - sorry, but this is just another term to make the e-collar approach sound more acceptable. Interestingly, a lot of the yank and jerk merchants have started using the term too.

Balancing out something pleasurable with something highly uncomfortable doesn't make the use of physical punishment right, or even better.

Adam, question for you. If a dog (any breed) as you keep pointing out, returns without exception when the e-collar is used, why do you think that is? Do you think it's because it receives a barely perceptable sensation on its neck, or perhaps (and in my opinion more likely) that it is feeling pain and needs to return because it's the only option the dog has to get the pain to stop?
Crysania
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07-11-2010, 11:26 PM
Oh great...just another thread for Adam to grandstand and talk about his crap "training."
zoe1969
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07-11-2010, 11:40 PM
Adam! I have a lurcher who has aggressive tendencies and we have trained her with tasty titbits and a change in my voice and I do a happy voice when she meets other dogs. I distract her by making a fuss of her. This has improved her no end...and guess what?? I didn't use an e-collar! Personally I think your approach sucks. I'd quite like to put one on you and see how you like it
Lucky Star
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08-11-2010, 12:53 AM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
As you know I use them, pretty extemsivel;y atm as well!

My methods are a combination of variouse trainers, basically I use the low level approach were you use the collar at the level the dog only just feels it. This means if the dog jumps ect its too high! At low level the dogs reaction to the collar is simply looking around.
Obviously this level will vary depending on distractions.

I prefer a balanced approach using a combination of rewards as well as the collar. This allows you to work the dog in drive and maximise performance.

Mostly I use the collar for off lead control (all breeds) and aggression issues, this is my main client base anyway.

I prefer the more reliable results of an e collar and the less time it takes, after all its all very well taking 6 months to sort something out but 6 months of still being fear aggressive or restricted exercise isn't very pleasent for the dog.

Interestingly using a vibrate collar is something that is becoming more popular, even with e collar trainers. Most of the collars will have a vibrate or tone option anyway and for years people have used this as a recall signal or as warning (leave command). However a few trainers have begun to utilise the vibrate as a major part of training.
http://diamondbarkennel.tripod.com/turnpager.htm
She also does lots of videos!

Interestingly some e collar trainers are very anti pager and tone training because they are none adjustable, I have met some dogs who find the tone highly aversive and the same with the pager. If your seriously into the pager some people recomend these collars.
http://www.k9electronics.com/product/9606900101/UnleashedTechnologyGentleTrainerGT1.aspx
Because its adjustable.

I personanly got into e collars a few years back after using normal training methods (including modern reward based) for years both as a hobby and business.
Since starting I have found them to be humane and effective, I have also found it tends to level the playing field in terms of resolving big issues. A must considering the types of case I deal with (pts threats) on occasions.

Btw I'm willing to answer any (genuine) questions and give advice. I'm also willing to meet up and demo my own dogs if people are interested.

Adam
I have to say that I really don't think you have a clue. My dog would not even notice a "low level approach" when he is in full flow so you would have to go for the 'full on' approach - and there's no way I would allow anyone to do that to my dog.

I have my doubts about you as a 'dog trainer' if your only recourse is to use e-collars. Anyone can shock a dog.
wilbar
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08-11-2010, 09:22 AM
Originally Posted by Lucky Star View Post
I have to say that I really don't think you have a clue. My dog would not even notice a "low level approach" when he is in full flow so you would have to go for the 'full on' approach - and there's no way I would allow anyone to do that to my dog.

I have my doubts about you as a 'dog trainer' if your only recourse is to use e-collars. Anyone can shock a dog.
I agree; so even if you are able to ignore the whole idea & revulsion of giving an animal an electric shock, the learning theory behind Adam's claims just doesn't stack up!! It's disengenuous & shows a lack of understanding of the theory at best, & if the theory is understood, then it's downright cruel & nasty at worst.
Borderdawn
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08-11-2010, 09:24 AM
Adam, do you have any videos of the e-collar working in the situations you describe, your clients I mean.
SLB
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08-11-2010, 09:27 AM
So how would the e-collar work for a dog who is fear reactive to certain objects/animals?

I dont see how it could...it would just reinforce the fear.
Tupacs2legs
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08-11-2010, 11:31 AM
....why are peeps encouraging/indulging ap??
SLB
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08-11-2010, 11:37 AM
Originally Posted by Tupacs2legs View Post
....why are peeps encouraging/indulging ap??
If you're reffering to me, I'm not I'm simply asking the whole forum how an e-collar would/would not work with a certain dog. I only started this thread so that people didnt carry it on, on another thread where the OP was asking a different question.

And I dont think anyone need worry about anyone using an e-collar if they read through or even just little bits of this thread, and I know only those who dont deserve a dog would take the opportunity to have a demo
Tupacs2legs
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08-11-2010, 11:43 AM
Originally Posted by SLB View Post
If you're reffering to me, I'm not I'm simply asking the whole forum how an e-collar would/would not work with a certain dog. I only started this thread so that people didnt carry it on, on another thread where the OP was asking a different question.

And I dont think anyone need worry about anyone using an e-collar if they read through or even just little bits of this thread, and I know only those who dont deserve a dog would take the opportunity to have a demo
ermm....already an extensive e-collar thread this one wasnt needed...just the kind of thread AP wants tho

the other thread was relevant tho,as a while back ap was bragging how he used an e collar on a mal and would use one on a mal pup too!!.


ps.. 'peeps' doesnt mean only you does it?
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