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Electric shock collars to be banned in England

...has received 80 comments (page 8)
Chris
Dogsey Veteran
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 6,664
Female 
 
29-01-2019, 12:45 PM
That's exactly the point, Gnasher - they didn't show fear, they didn't show discomfort - they didn't show hurt. However, do you truly believe that they went their entire lives without feeling any of these things? As said, they are very good at hiding signs of weakness.

How do you think the collar worked for your dog? Was it just because it was on their necks, or do you think they wanted to avoid what the collar could do?

Although dogs are good at hiding their feelings, they do feel and if the collar did little more than 'tickle' them, why do you think it made a difference to unwanted behaviour?
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CaroleC
Dogsey Senior
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 939
Female 
 
29-01-2019, 03:45 PM
On the other side of a solid boarded 6 foot fence, my neighbour has two Jack Russell Terriers. My Eddie and their bitch really hate each other, and will actually fight through the fence if they happen to be in their gardens at the same time! A few years ago I decided that this had to stop, and bought a citronella spray collar for my boy - a very stupid and thoughtless decision for a hound with highly developed scenting abilities.
The first time I used it, Eddie was deeply shocked. He stopped barking instantly, but he also stopped being himself, and his personality was drained. I never sprayed it again, but I did try letting him wear it a couple more times - as a reminder. He lost all joy in using his garden when the collar was on, and when it wasn't on, he was just as belligerent as before. No actual training had taken place, he was just frightened to bark because he feared that the ghastly spray would burn his nose again.
There was a much simpler remedy. Just to check that the other dog was indoors before opening the garden gate. Yes, we still have the occasional noisy incident when one of us forgets, but I can live with that. I couldn't live with a shadow of my boy. You may think me soft, but I believe that an e-collar can only work if a. the animal knows that the collar is in situ, and b. really fears what may happen if it carries out its instinctive behaviour. This is not a training device, it is just an artificial tool for control at a distance
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Gnasher
Dogsey Veteran
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 8,775
Female 
 
29-01-2019, 04:01 PM
Chris, I am really enjoying this debate in a civilised and logical way. You raise some really good points - I will tell you how I think the e collar worked so successfully with both Tai and Ben.

I will tell you about Tai first because his reaction was different to Ben's, and I believe it is because he was more "dog" and less "wolf". The reason we used it once on Tai was because of a problem we had with a distant neighbour's chickens. Back then set-aside was in existence and every day we would walk the dogs past this particular house in whose garden were running loose around 20 hens. They were unpinioned and so regularly would fly over the garden fence and hide in the Lleyandii hedge, totally invisible to anyone walking past. We would be walking past with both dogs under control at worst, at best on long leads. At least one stupid chicken would come flying out flapping and squawking straight into Tai and Ben!! Now although we had them under control, all this happened so quickly that invariably at least one chicken copped it. Surprisingly Ben never actually killed one it was Tai, and altogether he had about 4. Now you could say why didn't you go another route, but whichever way we went if we wanted to stick to the set aside we had to go past the chickens. To cut a long story short, we put the collar on Tai one day and walked past the garden with him off lead. Sure enough out came 3 squawking birds and the second Tai went OH gave him a zap and shouted No! Leave!! Tai immediately came away and we purposely came back that way - Tai gave about a 20 metre berth of the garden and ever since that day did exactly the same thing every time we walked past the garden! Instant and total success. I believe the experience for Tai WAS very uncomfortable and he did not associate the pain with the e collar, but with the locus. In his mind the bogey man had leaped out of the hedge and hurt him.

Ben was totally different. He immediately after his one and only zap knew that it had come from the e collar around his neck. To him we had suddenly magically grown an invisible finger which could control him every time he wore the e collar. This is the difference between the intelligence and cognitive abilities of the 2 dogs - Ben being more wolfy than Tai, knew exactly what the e collar meant, what it was for and that if he wanted to run free on his walkies he had to wear it. He wore the e collar every day he went out on a walk for about a year, maybe 2. Occasionally he had to have a vibrate as a reminder. Eventually we stopped using it. If it had been such an instrument of torture he would NEVER have allowed us to put it on him. NEVER. That dog took 2 male vets plus OH to hold him down at the vet to have an injection!! He would have ripped your hands off if he didn't like the e collar ... he had the strength of a rhino!!

So although I don't agree that we were cruel to Tai, I will admit that he did find the e collar traumatic as proven by his wide berth of the garden!! But he never ever wore it again, we never even tried to put it on him simply because we did not need to. But with Ben the e collar was if anything the key to freedom for him and he cared not a jot at having to wear it, even knowing what it could mean. That is because he understood what we were doing and why and accepted it as being reasonable and justified. This is wolf intelligence - if something is reasonable, justifiable and purposeful they will accept situations which may seem undesirable.

Sorry if this is a bit muddled - I know what I mean which is a start I guess!!
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Gnasher
Dogsey Veteran
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 8,775
Female 
 
29-01-2019, 04:08 PM
Originally Posted by CaroleC View Post
On the other side of a solid boarded 6 foot fence, my neighbour has two Jack Russell Terriers. My Eddie and their bitch really hate each other, and will actually fight through the fence if they happen to be in their gardens at the same time! A few years ago I decided that this had to stop, and bought a citronella spray collar for my boy - a very stupid and thoughtless decision for a hound with highly developed scenting abilities.
The first time I used it, Eddie was deeply shocked. He stopped barking instantly, but he also stopped being himself, and his personality was drained. I never sprayed it again, but I did try letting him wear it a couple more times - as a reminder. He lost all joy in using his garden when the collar was on, and when it wasn't on, he was just as belligerent as before. No actual training had taken place, he was just frightened to bark because he feared that the ghastly spray would burn his nose again.
There was a much simpler remedy. Just to check that the other dog was indoors before opening the garden gate. Yes, we still have the occasional noisy incident when one of us forgets, but I can live with that. I couldn't live with a shadow of my boy. You may think me soft, but I believe that an e-collar can only work if a. the animal knows that the collar is in situ, and b. really fears what may happen if it carries out its instinctive behaviour. This is not a training device, it is just an artificial tool for control at a distance
I totally agree with you Carole - a citronella collar (and an e collar) are both totally inappropriate training tools in the situation you describe. I cannot comment on citronella collars as I have no experience of them, but as you say for a scent hound with hindsight it was not a good idea!! Hindsight is a wonderful thing so don't beat yourself up and I hope your boy recovered his spirits!!

To use an e collar in my opinion with regard to any sort of aggression is absolute madness. They will associate the discomfort of the static shock with the other dog and it will not only escalate the violence of their attack, it will make them hate their foe even more and make them even more determined to kill them next time they meet. I would only ever use an e collar in the instance that we used it - to prevent a very undesirable behaviour that had proved to be intractable with more positive methods - although perfectly natural could likely result in the animal being put down. In Tai's case, it was killing the neighbour's chickens, and in Ben's case not recalling.

Hope this helps x
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Chris
Dogsey Veteran
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 6,664
Female 
 
29-01-2019, 05:42 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post

I will tell you about Tai first because his reaction was different to Ben's, and I believe it is because he was more "dog" and less "wolf". The reason we used it once on Tai was because of a problem we had with a distant neighbour's chickens. Back then set-aside was in existence and every day we would walk the dogs past this particular house in whose garden were running loose around 20 hens. They were unpinioned and so regularly would fly over the garden fence and hide in the Lleyandii hedge, totally invisible to anyone walking past. We would be walking past with both dogs under control at worst, at best on long leads. At least one stupid chicken would come flying out flapping and squawking straight into Tai and Ben!! Now although we had them under control, all this happened so quickly that invariably at least one chicken copped it. Surprisingly Ben never actually killed one it was Tai, and altogether he had about 4. Now you could say why didn't you go another route, but whichever way we went if we wanted to stick to the set aside we had to go past the chickens. To cut a long story short, we put the collar on Tai one day and walked past the garden with him off lead. Sure enough out came 3 squawking birds and the second Tai went OH gave him a zap and shouted No! Leave!! Tai immediately came away and we purposely came back that way - Tai gave about a 20 metre berth of the garden and ever since that day did exactly the same thing every time we walked past the garden! Instant and total success. I believe the experience for Tai WAS very uncomfortable and he did not associate the pain with the e collar, but with the locus. In his mind the bogey man had leaped out of the hedge and hurt him.
And breaking that down, it was the pain he was trying to avoid on future walks. He gave himself a distance that he deemed safe so that he could avoid the pain happening when in the proximity of the 'garden'

Ben was totally different. He immediately after his one and only zap knew that it had come from the e collar around his neck. To him we had suddenly magically grown an invisible finger which could control him every time he wore the e collar. This is the difference between the intelligence and cognitive abilities of the 2 dogs - Ben being more wolfy than Tai, knew exactly what the e collar meant, what it was for and that if he wanted to run free on his walkies he had to wear it. He wore the e collar every day he went out on a walk for about a year, maybe 2. Occasionally he had to have a vibrate as a reminder. Eventually we stopped using it. If it had been such an instrument of torture he would NEVER have allowed us to put it on him. NEVER. That dog took 2 male vets plus OH to hold him down at the vet to have an injection!! He would have ripped your hands off if he didn't like the e collar ... he had the strength of a rhino!!
So again it was avoidance of pain that made him do what you wanted. Tai associated with the garden, Ben just knew he got a pain in the neck if he didn't come back to you when called. Of course Ben didn't avoid having the collar on because dogs aren't stupid. He liked his walks. He didn't like the pain, but knew he could avoid it.


That is because he understood what we were doing and why and accepted it as being reasonable and justified. This is wolf intelligence - if something is reasonable, justifiable and purposeful they will accept situations which may seem undesirable.
Nothing to do with 'wolf intelligence' or him knowing what was 'reasonable and justified' . What happened was more to do with both dogs avoiding pain. Basically, we are back to whether or not it is reasonable to deliberately inflict pain to train dogs. We both have very different opinions on this and, I guess, we always will have
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Gnasher
Dogsey Veteran
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 8,775
Female 
 
29-01-2019, 06:30 PM
Chris: I agree with you re Tai - but I am not contrite and yes, I think it was reasonable to inflict a second of pain on him to stop him murdering any more chickens. Interestingly though after that one occasion, he stopped showing any desire or interest in chasing sheep - something that he had previously shown a very strong predeliction for. Call it coincidental, I call it wolf wiliness!!

You would have to have known Ben to know what I mean. I cannot prove it but there is no doubt in my mind that the momentary 1 second of pain cannot have been that bad because no way in a million years could you make that dog do something he did not want to do - we would never ever ever have been able to get the e collar on his neck had he been in any way hurt, intimidated or frightened of it - even though he knew it meant walkies!! He was intelligent enough to know that willy nilly he would get his walk and that if he had kicked up a huge and very scarey fuss we would simply have abandoned the idea. I am utterly utterly convinced that certainly in the case of Ben no cruelty was involved whatsoever, and only very momentary in the case of Tai.

It is a shame i can no longer prove it to you - poor dear Ben's ashes are buried under the hawthorn tree in our garden on top of his father Hal!!
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Musher
Dogsey Junior
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 245
Male 
 
16-02-2019, 03:24 AM
Originally Posted by Chris View Post
A student (wanting to go on to be a dog trainer) tried it for her lurcher who was fence running to get to the cat next door.

Set low, she put the collar on and let the dog out. Dog went at fence, collar zapped, took three months to get the dog to go back into the garden as he associated the shock with the environment rather than the barking at the fence. Within four months, he was back to fence running to get to next doors cat.

Needless to say, she wasn't popular when news got out

Beautiful German Shepherd who had the collar put on him because he used to go for the postman. Collar zapped when postman got to fence. Dog went crazy and badly mauled the postman (who he had only previously barked at) and was PTS. I met the owner when she brought her next dog to puppy classes.

Do you want more?

I can add as, I am sure can Brenda



Sometimes I don't get to eat Elk after I take my bow out to the hills.
Sometimes I do get to eat Elk after I take my bow out to the hills,.


......because sometimes I miss and sometimes I don't miss.
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Musher
Dogsey Junior
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 245
Male 
 
16-02-2019, 03:32 AM
My grandmother was a very gentle human. I've never met another as gentle as she in the 30 years since her passing.
I remember many many of her little sayings, passages, anecdotes, etc.
When I read some of the "messages" typed on this thread I was reminded of what I heard her say to me when I asked her for a painkiller because I had cut my hand on a blade of swampgrass. "Pain can be good. It is a confirmation you're alive and reminder something new can learned." Looking back I think, "Oh my! I must be been a whimp. It was only a tiny nick." I also think that maybe she knew the power of the painkillers to numb my entire humanity.

I dislike hunger pains. They were a huge determining factor in my pushing myself to become a better marksman.
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Musher
Dogsey Junior
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 245
Male 
 
16-02-2019, 03:49 AM
Gnasher, I'm OK.
PM me
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Gnasher
Dogsey Veteran
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 8,775
Female 
 
16-02-2019, 09:35 AM
Originally Posted by Musher View Post
Gnasher, I'm OK.
PM me
Will do

x gnasher

PS: Sorry Musher, can't PM you. Apparently I do not have the correct level of importance - despite the fact I have been Dogsey for well over 20 years!! You could email me at:-

desperatedanandpansy@googlemail.com
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