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WhichPets
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23-08-2011, 06:52 PM
So I chatted to the vet whilst I was at work today - he suggested the pet MOT (its designed for pets over 7, but he said it should do what I am looking for).

This is what it tests for -
Kidney function
Diabetes
Liver function
Anaemia
Thyroid gland function
Some cancers

I don't know the exact names of the tests but does this sound as though it would rule out anything medical leading to behavioral issues or do I need to ask for the exact test names?
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Tass
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24-08-2011, 10:47 PM
Subclinical means it is there but not yet at a level that causes observable clinical symptoms so bloodwork can be more sensitive than what you can observe.

There is no harm in ruling out as much as you can, and in any case it gives you baseline levels for comparison if you have any bloodwork done in future.

Possibly at the breeders she got confidence from the rest of her family, and the fact that she had been reared in that environment?

With clinical hypothyroidism (overly slow metabolism) you often also get lack of energy, poor coat and heat seeking with weight gain. There is divided opinion as to whether it gives rise to aggression or not.

With clinical hyperthyroidism (speeded up metabolism), which is common in elderly cats, you tend to get a racing heartbeat and marked weight lost.
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24-08-2011, 11:16 PM
Originally Posted by Tass View Post
Subclinical means it is there but not yet at a level that causes observable clinical symptoms so bloodwork can be more sensitive than what you can observe.

There is no harm in ruling out as much as you can, and in any case it gives you baseline levels for comparison if you have any bloodwork done in future.

Possibly at the breeders she got confidence from the rest of her family, and the fact that she had been reared in that environment?

With clinical hypothyroidism (overly slow metabolism) you often also get lack of energy, poor coat and heat seeking with weight gain. There is divided opinion as to whether it gives rise to aggression or not.

With clinical hyperthyroidism (speeded up metabolism), which is common in elderly cats, you tend to get a racing heartbeat and marked weight lost.
Thanks for that. In terms of the tests I mentioned I take it they would be sufficient to rule out any illness leading to behavioral issues, or are there any other extras I should ask for?

Yes I think at the breeders she had her litter mates for support although she was less confident than them but not shy. Indoors she's fine - she does tend to be very quiet and sleepy, but outdoors shes lively and round the parents she's also a bundle of trouble (albeit a nervous one!).
She is heat avoiding, and no excessive weight. Her coat seems ok to me, they are naturally quite coarse anyway.

Will test anyway to rule things out - I'm sure shes fine but it cant hurt - had a terrible day today so need all the help I can get
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24-08-2011, 11:46 PM
Originally Posted by WhichPets View Post
Thanks for that. In terms of the tests I mentioned I take it they would be sufficient to rule out any illness leading to behavioral issues, or are there any other extras I should ask for?

Yes I think at the breeders she had her litter mates for support although she was less confident than them but not shy. Indoors she's fine - she does tend to be very quiet and sleepy, but outdoors shes lively and round the parents she's also a bundle of trouble (albeit a nervous one!).
She is heat avoiding, and no excessive weight. Her coat seems ok to me, they are naturally quite coarse anyway.

Will test anyway to rule things out - I'm sure shes fine but it cant hurt - had a terrible day today so need all the help I can get
One of the difficulties of this idea of "ruling out medical causes of behavioural problems" is that it is great in theory but unless you know what you are looking for it can be tricky to know what to test for, or how far to go, once you have looked for any abnormality in the standard clinical tests and physical examination techniques.

For example compulsive behaviour in some cases has been linked with high cholesterol levels, which not all that many vets are aware of, but you need to specifically test for that (I'm not suggesting you do so, just explaining the difficulties).

Arguably you could end up spending thousands doing MRI scans etc, just in case. After all, once you find something you can stop. As long as the tests come back clear at what point do you stop looking for "something else"?

I have even known a dog passed as medically clear by the vet being sent back by a highly experienced behaviourist with recommendation for a specific test which was positive. The vet diagnosied self-mutilation due to separation anxiety.

The behaviourist successfully treated the separation problem, that did exist, but correctly attributed the accompanying self-mutilation bleeding foot chewing to mange which the vet had missed, due to the confusion created by the rest of the behavioural problem.

With her young age and history I think the chances are it is quite likely to be behavioural in her case, but maybe they will find something else, but in my experience some Buhunds can be quite reactive dogs.
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24-08-2011, 11:58 PM
I suspect it's behavioral too but I feel it might be worth testing to make sure. It's a good point that it could completely miss something anyway. The vet said hypothyroidism or impaired liver / kidney function would be the main cause if any.

I think with the buhunds being a vocal breed she has learned to use this to her advantage. Her nervousness is really sad for me to see, watching her react to the smallest noises it makes me wonder how long it will take to build her confidence.

Would you go ahead with the tests or maybe see a behaviorist first? Have many of the buhunds you have met been nervous / sensitive or just generally vocally reactive?
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24-08-2011, 11:59 PM
I suspect it's behavioral too but I feel it might be worth testing to make sure. It's a good point that it could completely miss something anyway. The vet said hypothyroidism or impaired liver / kidney function would probably be the main cause if any.

I think with the buhunds being a vocal breed she has learned to use this to her advantage. Her nervousness is really sad for me to see, watching her react to the smallest noises it makes me wonder how long it will take to build her confidence.

Would you go ahead with the tests or maybe see a behaviorist first? Have many of the buhunds you have met been nervous / sensitive or just generally vocally reactive?
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25-08-2011, 12:10 AM
Originally Posted by WhichPets View Post
I suspect it's behavioral too but I feel it might be worth testing to make sure. It's a good point that it could completely miss something anyway. The vet said hypothyroidism or impaired liver / kidney function would be the main cause if any.

I think with the buhunds being a vocal breed she has learned to use this to her advantage. Her nervousness is really sad for me to see, watching her react to the smallest noises it makes me wonder how long it will take to build her confidence.

Would you go ahead with the tests or maybe see a behaviorist first? Have many of the buhunds you have met been nervous / sensitive or just generally vocally reactive?
I would go ahead with the tests as a reputable behaviourist would wish to ensure you had ruled out at least anything obviously medical first.

I would also ask your vet if he/she can personally recommend any local behaviourists whose work they know and trust as all behaviourists are definitely not the same, even within one organisation and not all good behaviourists or trainers choose to belong to any organisation.

Liver or kidney problems can leave metabolic toxins in the blood and that is one way in which they can affect behaviour (there are also others but it would take too long to discuss all the possibilities ).

Buhunds are pretty little dogs but they are expected to raise the alarm with strangers and many guard/alerting breeds can be sensitive to any changes, suspicious, reactive (vocally and behaviourally), keen to make their point first, and wary, with there being a range of temperaments in every breed, but I don't think "calm and laid back" when I consider a Buhund .

Many dogs gain confidence from knowing you will deal with situations, and that you will decide what is an appropriate response, so they don't need to, but no one approach fits every dog .
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25-08-2011, 12:21 AM
Thankyou, I will probably go for the tests, I don't have much to loose!
I know they are used for guarding and was aware of their vocal nature.. Any breed has dogs which differ from the standard. With there being so little information on them I wasn't aware that nervousness could be a common trait - in this case this is what seems to cause the aggressive behaviour. I do my best to ensure she doesn't encounter stressful situations and remove her where possible.

Sadly when you have a dog that is nervous of every little sound both indoors and out it can be hard to keep her from practising fear.

Any extra tips on how to cope with her would be much appreciated.. Had a bit of a set back today and am starting to feel a bit overwhelmed and disheartened.

I was considering getting a muzzle but I'm unsure whether this may make her more nervous outside or not...
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