It's early and I am not sure that I understand the question properly!
I do think that we often suppress a dogs behavioural genes yes...we don't allow our collies to herd small children in the park, we don't allow our retrievers to go and catch a duck from the pond, we don't allow our terriers to dig out rabbits and the like. We also expect a great deal of our urban dogs in terms of walking nicely onlead/not scavaging (you never know whats in the stuff...)the list is endless.
Around the house we stop them counter surfing and raiding bins...we stop them herding the family into one room and retrieving the small furry pets we may have. We stop them chasing the cat.

I think yes, we very much suppress a dogs behavioural genes....but perhaps I have misunderstood the question as I am may be typing..but I am not actually awake.

Hi Ramble

You understand the question perfectly, you should get up early more often!

Thanks all for your thoughts.
with the behaviour phenotype = environment + genes.
I'm sure in 'normal' circumstances the training can have it's place over the genes. however, my feeling is that in times of stress, the genetics will 'trump' the environment; eg: a hereditary genetic problem such as OCD tail chasing in EBTs or GSDs.

Hoorah for understanding!!!

I agree with you. I also think training methods and expectations on dogs should be altered as a result. This is my current thinking at least.

Example...my bitch is reactive to other dogs as a direct result of being kennelled near to them and feeling frustration at not getting to them,naturally she wants to interact (she is a sociable little minxette). She has, we think, also been shocked for chasing other dogs in the field...so...the result is we have a bitch who is massively 'stressed' by the proximity of unknown dogs and that can lead to some interesting experiences for us all.

My gut reaction was to train her to sit and watch me as that method has worked for other dogs we have known in the past.
It was pointed out to me recently however that this is totally unnatural for a dog..instinctively they want to look around and so making her sit and look at us was making things worse. What we should do is get her to use another sense...and to move to rid herself of the adrenalin surging around.

We are now throwing treats on the floor when we see another dog...and sometimes just running her (onlead...)in a happy manner. She loves it, it is working really well and we now have her where she looks at us when she hears a dog bark, ready for a treat to be thrown.She is much more relaxed on walks and much easier to handle when she spots another dog. We have got up close a few times now and she has said hi in a calm manner.

I think the example fits. Many trainers would have her sit and look at us and be rewarded for being calm and still...but all her instincts and the adrenalin surge are telling her to do the total opposite...

ETA we throw the treat so she has to move forward for it and often sniff it out...

We (Tassle and I) have a dog who was truly feral---not a street dog, it was akin to moving a wild animal into the house in the beginning.

That was about 7 years ago.

He obviously then had totally natural behaviours as well as ones he may have learnt would help him survive. He made collections of food and other possessions and hid them in 'dens' around the garden, he was untouchable, he wouldn't eat/drink if we were around.He crept out of his cage at night and played with the cat rather than the dog although his body language was very clear and exaggerated in comparison with most dogs.

Now a stranger wouldn't know he was any different from the others except for being nervous.

So did we 'train' the behavious out or did he train himself out of them because he found a different way to survive and needed to adapt? If he ahd to survive in the wild again would he go back to them?

I think he would so we haven't trained them out, just covered them up.

Dogs who go feral do so very quickly usually. We had a foxhound who had survived for 6 mths on the streets.

Just thoughts.

rune

Oooo it's so interesting this.
Really interesting stuff.

How much did you 'reward' positive steps towards better behaviour...and do you think your other dogs influenced his behaviour at all...who of course had been trained by you already (I have no doubt that Cosmo has shown Tango how to behave in the house, especially on the sofa. He also taught her how to play with toys....)

Interesting stuff...love it!

For the first week I was feeding him chicken and rice every 4 hours or so....(mainly in the night as it was the only time he would eat) you had to leave the food for him....it was the only way he would eat.

I spent about 4 months (as told by many people) getting him to take food from hands....and also trying to get to touch his neck as the people in the kennels that had caught him had put a collar on him!

I got to the point of being able to touch him and then he would take some food.....but he never liked it, it was always something forced on him that he learnt to endure, but never enjoy.
......then I moved away......

There was no way he could come with me, so he stayed with mum....and she left him be....treated him abit like a house rabbit....he went in and out with the other dogs and the outside area is fully enclosed so he could not escape. .......

One day.....when she was on the phone to me....maybe 2 years on (mum might remember better) he went up to her for a fuss while she was sat watching TV.....she stroked his face and neck and had us both in floods.....

It is still a bit honour to have a cuddle with him....although he does jump up for fuss sometimes (usually outside with lots of escape room )....he has learnt to chase a ball and bring it back.... I have trimmed his knots a few times (but his backend is a difficult place to touch - possibly lots of internal probs )
He was castrated.....that was a bit of hassle (and one of the reasons for changing vets!)

He can be a sod....but is a very special dog in lots of ways....and a major learning experience!

Wow. Well done to the two of you...well the three of you...and all of the dog of course. I can totally understand why you would have been in tears. I was bad enough the first time Tango nudged my elbow for a tickle! Well done you two xxxx

ah I remember tassle talking about this dog, it was on another thread some time ago, it was very intresting to hear from someone that had delt with one.

I think as a dog owner/trainer it would be few and far between that you would come across a truely feral dog,

I looked all over for information and help when we first had him, there was nothing. The street dogs are different, they have had human contact and the ones that moved into homes did so willingly and knew humans meant food.

Pippin seemed to have either had no human contact (till he was poled by the dog warden) or only bad contact.

Which is why I would say his behaviour was about as 'natural' as you get'

The hound was different, she knew people.

rune