My posts were added because a poster in their ignorance presume all KC staffs are heavy and unfit-
am I supposed to let the poster think this is true? Or do I answer as best I can (without personal remarks being made etc) as I did

Azzz take all the irrelevant bits out and we can get back to *debating* gameness and dog fighting

Hopefully the post I made above (and quoted below) addresses the crucial points up to now...

CBT - you say you prefer them because of health fitness etc, and you are completely 100% allowed to have that preference, but what many people would say (as in my post above) - why not keep those qualities but just take out the gameness? You'd still have the exactly the same dog, just bar the 'gameness'. Wouldn't that be 'perfect' ?

Please note that for this moment in time I am using Stans definition (or the defininition he was given) of 'gameness' - which is the capacity to fight till death or soo ruthlessly that it is uncontrollable (ie the dog doesn't know when to or 'can't' stop 'willingly').

P.s - if people want to 'debate' what gameness actually is, then we can lock this thread for now, start a thread debating gameness and THEN come back to this thread.

Dog fighting is of no interest to me Lel, other than the fact it is a part of my breeds history. I have read a lot about dog fighting in the course of studying about bull breeds and I have also heard it from the horses mouth so to speak from talking to people who have indulged in this activity in the past.

My opinion of dog fighting is that it is something I would never wish to be involved in, nor my dogs to be involved.
You, or anyone else here can make all the sly digs you like, I have never been involved in this illegal activity nor would I ever be, so speculate and say what you like, I know the facts of the matter.

eraze I think you should lock this, unless you want to see if it will run for the record of longest debate on DW ?

I for one have heard so many different meanings of gameness that i would be interested to hear what it truly means?

I have heard it being described as everything from *athleticism*? to *dog to dog aggression* to *dog fighting *

This is where worry and confusion comes in- because to different people it means different things

CBT
I dont do sly digs- and have nowhere in any of my posts say you fight your dogs ?

I have made a handful of posts on this thread only - i think other people questioned why you chose your dogs? i havent asked once

for me personally Gameness means determination and drive, it does not and should never mean dog to dog aggression in the sense of growling, lunging, snarling etc. Some have likened gameness to "controlled fury" meaning that they could easily seperate the dogs when fighting, as they would have to for washing purposes and treatment of wounds etc. The dogs were often encouraged by verbal command when they were in the pit although the handlers were not allowed to touch the dogs.

Dogs in the fighting pit would not show normal patterns of pre-fight aggressive body language, they wouldnt necessarily growl or snarl or hackle, they would just get to business. so a snarling aggressive dog on the end of a leash is an accident waiting to happen not a game dog. and certainly not a dog to be proud of.

I wouldnt want a dog that was aggressive towards other dogs! my dogs all get along, but as Ive said before I do like to supervise them at feed times and playtimes to make sure nothing happens, prevention is better than cure.

My dogs arent aggresive towards other dogs, like I said before they watch with interest when they see other peoples outwardly aggressive dogs are lunging at them, they are not wanting to start fights, and thats the way I like to keep it.

my dogs are not "game" in the true sense of the word as to find if a dog is game you have to test it against other dogs, and that is something I have never done and never would, so my dogs are bred from "game dogs" in the not so distant past of their pedigree, which had been tested in this way, so they are bred from game lines if you like, but that does not make them game. Theres a big difference.

What it does ensure is that they are fit, healthy and not bred to a standard of looks, so that is why I choose these dogs rather than go out and get KC staffs, plus the fact I like irish type dogs better.

Does this clarify anything or should I just give up and bang my head off a brick wall? :smt021
It might be more likely to listen and open its mind

(sorry but frustration at going over and over the same thing tends to bring out the sarcastic side of me )

I apologise Lel, its just that some on here have been making sly digs and I was beginning to tire of being good humoured about it, Im sorry ops: I didnt mean to single you out.
Put it down to having a bad day

Ok - I'm locking this thread until the thread on 'gameness' reaches some sort of conclusion first. You can find it here: http://dogweb.co.uk/talk/viewtopic.php?t=9013