What are the differences between various bull terriers (APBT, AST, ISBT, SBT)

I've been reading a lot recently on various dog forums about the differences between the various bull terrier breeds and I'm getting a bit confused. Thought as there are so many staffie lover on here, I might get some answers that make it clearer. So here goes, bear with me...

What is the difference between american staffordshire terriers and american pitbull terriers? I thought that these two dogs descended from the same breed and split into two different types, the amstaff being the show dog and the apbt being the game working dog with differences between height, weight and build. Am I half way there on this one? And are amstaffs legal in the UK or illegal as are APBT's?

And, what is the difference between irish staffordshire bull terriers,american pit bull terriers and staffordshire bull terriers? Are the ISBT's and APBT's the same breed, with irish staffs being a codename for pit bull or are they two seperate breeds? And, if they are different breeds, what is the difference?

Clear as mud probably, but any and all comments/opinions very welcome!


Claire

Hi Claire,

Your are right about the American Staffordshire Terrier (AST) and the American Pit Bull Terrier (APBT) they were originally the same breed and are to this day dual registered with some registries in the US. Basically the AmStaff is usually a heavier blocker dog than the APBT, which tends to come in all shapes and sizes, as whilst the APBT is bred for performance the AST is bred for looks. Some argue that they are very far apart now because of the differences in the way they are bred.

Irish Staffords are not a seperate breed they are just Staffordshire Bull Terriers. They are a strain of Stafford that were originally bred in Ireland hence the term "Irish". Many people dont refer to their dogs as Irish Staffords just Irish bred Staffords. If you look back further enough lots of the "Irish" dogs come from old KC lines its just that the breed split into two sectors the show dogs and the working dogs. The show dogs (KC) tend to be smaller and stockier, less muscular dogs with larger heads and smaller noses (although there are exceptions to the rule) whilst the dogs that come from working strains tend to be built for speed and stamina and resemble the original Staffords of the early 1900s, they are supposedly generally healthier because they are not bred for looks but best is bred to best regardless of looks as with most cases when you breed for perfromance rather than looks usually you end up with a healthier dog. I know some KC dogs have problems with breathing and in the heat but generally in the dogs that come from working strains they have no such problems and are have amazing stamina. I must add that many people prefer to call their dogs "old type" staffords as some Kennel Club breeders of Staffords dont follow the standard and try to keep their dogs more inline with what they see as the original Stafford.

The stories that you hear about the Irish Staffords being a codename for pitbulls are complete rubbish and fabricated stories just to sell more papers. Irish Staffords were around long before APBT was banned in the UK, if they are as people say a front for APBTs why then would they have had to call them a different name back then when the APBT was not banned?

Hope that helps perhaps somebody else could shed more light or pick up on anything they feel I have missed or argue any points raised.

Here is my little "Irish" bred Stafford. She stands 18.5" and 39lbs which if you look at the standard is quite a bit over the KC standard but is in many peoples eyes seen to be a more balanced version as back in the mid 1900s the Staffordshire standard was changed and thsi caused a lot of debate as whilst they dropped the height tehy did not drop the weight limits and some people felt that this led to a less well balanced dog.







My dog is a Stafford through and through, some people will tell you there is only one "type" and that the others are not Staffords I for one feel that this is not the case and for anybody who feels like this I say come and view my dogs and tell me they are not Staffords.

think you've covered it there Laura
I went ploughing in on another Staffy site the other day ( I blame my hormones ) but someone asked about Irish staffs and they used "that" old article from the telegraph of all places as proper info !!!

Ohh dont get me started lol. That article, much like the recent one, is such a load of shit. I mean if you think about the dogs that are found in pedigrees quite a bit like CH Psycho (to name just the one) - were around well before the APBT was banned so if these dogs are as they say some kind of codename for the APBT why bother calling them Staffords back then when the APBT was not banned? Trouble is since that has been published I have been surprised the number of people who have believed this and ranted on about it lol.

Which site? Send me the link via PM or Messenger if you dont want to put it up here.

What is the difference in height between the Irish and the english stafford, one of mine is 14 1/2inches the other I think will make 16.

Thoughts of some old timers & founding SBT Club members on the modern type Staffords:

(Joe Mallen)

...You ask me what I think of the present-day dogs and the old timers. Well, as regards the new standard, I am sure they are bringing them too low to the ground. Give me a staffordshire about 17 ins. at the shoulder. He must be on the alert, strong, active, a very hard and strong muzzle with clean lips. He should have a good heart and plenty of guts, but you can not find this out in the show ring. I can go as far as to say that eighty per cent of staffordshires today are cowards...


(Jack Barnard)

...I do without a doubt like to see a stafford within the essential spirit and characteristics of the breed, but I’m afraid and I will go as far as to say, the majority of our present day specimens are lacking the essential "guts", this having been forgotten in the quest for so-called type. I am not advocating a raving maniac, but I do maintain and uphold that a staffordshire with no spirit is like an angel without wings...

...guts having been forgotten and a thing of the past, what looks more daft than a silly Stafford, especially to one who knows Staffords.

...I do maintain and uphold that to see a Stafford in the ring crawling on it´s belly, utterly terrified, is enough to make a true sportsman utterly disgusted, so I do appeal to all owners and breeders to try and maintain the true essential in the Stafford, namely spirit.

Since our standard was drawn up in 1935 some has been revised whether to the good or detriment of the breed I refuse to say...


(H N Beilby)


...if the 16 ins. is the popular height limit let us keep to it, and if the corresponding recomended weight of 37lbs. is made of bone and muscle ,well and good, but the low built, fat and puffy dog of this weight is not typical, and to perpetuate such a type is doing a real dis-service to the breed and is getting further and further away from the whole "inspiration" of the Staffordshire, and can only lead to the producing of bulldogs with long muzzles.

(John F Gordon)

As any breeder knows it is comparatively simple to breed dogs with given physical characteristics, but it is far from easy to maintain correct temperament if the medium for propagating these desired mental factors is missing...

...and he added, most succintly, placing his hand to where, I presume, lay his heart. "If a Stafford hasn´t got it here - he´s no Stafford, an´mark my words, laad, that´s what they´re aimimg for - a Stafford without a true heart"...I am guite sure we are not deliberately aiming for anything of the sort, the fact remains that we are nevertheless in danger of getting there...

...let us breed as closely as possible to this prized characteristic, and hold on to the real Staffordhire spirit as long as we are able...

************************************************** ***

Moodieloo there is no hard and fast rule. The Kennel Club standard states 16" as a maximum height. Most people who breed old type dogs do not aim for taller dogs just more well balanced. I have seen some as small as 14" and as tall as 22" infact I have a friend with a KC registered Staff who is 21".

I think the main factor is that the weight limits are too heavy, when the breed standard was changed they dropped the height but not the weight now if the dog was considered to be balanced before the change how could it be balanced afterwards if they only adapt the heights? I consider my dog well balanced at 18.5" and 39lbs so how can a dog 4.5" smaller but a heavier weight be balanced? Its a debate that can go on forever, the truth is they come in all shapes and sizes but in general the old/irish type dogs tend to look leaner with more obvious muscle and a longer nose for easier breathing with the show type being usually smaller and stockier with a larger head and shorter nose. I love all Staffs, I am not having a dig here at any breeders or dogs just giving my honest opinion.

I prefer a staff to be over 16" and well proportioned with a good sized head, but with a longer muzzle and more of a chiseled look than some fo the KC staffords. Im in agreement with you laura, the breed standard could do with being a little more flexible towards the upper height limit, even 18" would be better. I have seen some tiny staffs and I must admit I dont like them at all, a staff should be a medium sized dog IMO not a small dog.

Wow Laura, your dogs are beautiful :smt007

Thanks for all the information, makes more sense now. Are american staffs illegal in this country, as pitbulls are?

I've been wondering about the ancestry of my bitch. She has a similar body shape to your white staff, only not quite so muscular yet! She's about 17" tall and weights around 33llbs and is definately not short and stocky like my male staff, although she is only 16 months old. People always think she's a cross or a pitbull because of her build and her head is a little slimmer than a "regular" staff with a longer nose.

Claire

Have just looked on the turnstyle website and my bitch is the spitting image of tyger!

techically the amstaff stems from the pitbull, so I suppose the answer to that question would be yes? with a question mark?
The DDA is a stupid law and thankfully, people arent paying much attention to it these days

My small staff weights 17kilos, the vet would like her down to 15, yet my pup is 15inches tall and weighs 12kilos,so I assume she will be a bigger build than her sister. My previous two were 17inches tall and 15 inches tall. There are so many variations, but at the end of the day they are all staffies.