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Crysania
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30-07-2010, 11:57 AM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post

I don't know what your dog does/doesn't do that bothers you. If she's so good why does she need any additional training?
Ok then let me reword it -- what can you accomplish with your shock collars that a positive trainer cannot? Not with my dog, with any dog.

And yes, my dog is great. We do training sessions at this point to keep her mind active, teach her tricks, do agility things, shaping, etc. She enjoys learning and so we teach her things.
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Jackie
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30-07-2010, 12:00 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
Tbh many owners give up on training because the dog isn't responding to it in a decent time frame, while many people think this is the wrong attitude the reality is it is the attitude many people have.
E collars do result in quick long term learning. This is much more reinforcing to the owner than persiting with a method that takes longer and ultimatly may not work.

I don't know what your dog does/doesn't do that bothers you. If she's so good why does she need any additional training?

Adam
And thats the crux of the matter a quick fix, without any effort on the owners part, or yours!!
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wilbar
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30-07-2010, 12:07 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
Tbh many owners give up on training because the dog isn't responding to it in a decent time frame, while many people think this is the wrong attitude the reality is it is the attitude many people have.
E collars do result in quick long term learning. This is much more reinforcing to the owner than persiting with a method that takes longer and ultimatly may not work.

I don't know what your dog does/doesn't do that bothers you. If she's so good why does she need any additional training?

Adam
Owners may give up on training because the dog isn't responding, but this doesn't make the use of punishment & electric shocks acceptable.

Ecollars may also result in quick learning ~ but exactly what has the dog learned? To be scared, to cower on the ground, to become extremely stressed in the presence of the owner/trainer, to become inhibited, to suppress natural behaviours, to make spurious associations with the pain & the cause of the pain? And no doubt ecollars can be very reinforcing to owners who think their dog is now well-behaved ~ but surely it is the effect of ecollars on dogs we should be concerned about, not the effect on the owner or trainer. After all it is the poor dog that gets the shock!!
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k9ulf
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30-07-2010, 12:45 PM
Adam, you really make my toenails curl
All the best
Ulf
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rune
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30-07-2010, 12:50 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
You work/are associated with rescue aren't you?
I'm sure you know the figures, its pretty common knowledge.

Adam
Not to me---I don't know the figures---do you? If you don't then you are once again quoting from others who don't know----but think it sounds good.

Not to mention the breakdown of WHY dogs are pts.

rune
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rune
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30-07-2010, 12:52 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
Tbh many owners give up on training because the dog isn't responding to it in a decent time frame, while many people think this is the wrong attitude the reality is it is the attitude many people have.
E collars do result in quick long term learning. This is much more reinforcing to the owner than persiting with a method that takes longer and ultimatly may not work.

I don't know what your dog does/doesn't do that bothers you. If she's so good why does she need any additional training?

Adam
DUH----strange attitude to think training ends----it doesn't if you both enjoy it. Of course if it is involving electric shocks all the time the sooner it ends the better!

rune
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Crysania
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30-07-2010, 12:55 PM
Originally Posted by rune View Post
DUH----strange attitude to think training ends----it doesn't if you both enjoy it. Of course if it is involving electric shocks all the time the sooner it ends the better!

rune
I think it's a really strange attitude too! Learning is a lifelong process. It would be like someone graduating from high school or college and saying "well, my learning's done!" It just doesn't make sense. So what if my dog doesn't need to be trained to not jump on people or house trained or whatever. There's always more learning to be done!

Granted, none of it's with a shock collar.

I notice that he hasn't been able to answer my question about what he can do that a positive trainer cannot. Just as I suspected, the answer is "nothing."
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Ben Mcfuzzylugs
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30-07-2010, 12:57 PM
I would have said that an important part of being a dog trainer is to explain to the owners why something takes time and teach them that you have dogs for 10+ years so it is worth investing a few months in training to reach that goal with no negative sied effects

Communication with the owners is at least as big a part of the job as training the dogs - rather than getting an ego boost from darting in, making a supposed amazing fix, then darting off without giving the owner the long term understanding to deal with any other problems
No doubt once the e collar trainer has left the owner will be tempted to try it themselves fir any other problems that arrive


It is just not possible to quickly fix any deeply held fears and issues
all you can do is supress them

In humans we gave up shock therapy a long time ago, work with the mental state takes time
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SibeVibe
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30-07-2010, 01:08 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
Dogs were rescues and fearful of new owners due to previouse abuse.

Adam

When Sabaka came into welfare she was scared, starved, and shutdown. Covered from head to toe in her own urine and faeces. The worst abuse case the SSHC Welfare Co-ordinator had seen to date. Sadly her litter sister did not survive.

Sabaka found a corner, faced the wall and shook with fear. She displayed advanced anxious behaviours. The lass was petrified and trusted no-one.

Her rehabilitation was a positively reinforced experience. Although intense, it was not a long drawn out process that would have kept her trapped in a fearful mindset for a long period of time.

All done without the use of an e collar.

I am truely horrified and deeply sadened that any trainer would recommend an e collar be used in these circumstances and imply it's use is for the welfare of the dog. Obviously my outrage is an emotional response. The same emotional response I felt when I first met the quivering wreck who sat facing the corner. But when it came to helping Sabaka I had no sentimental or emotional mindsent. I was detached, it was my job to help her, to teach her and to allow her without negative experience to become the little hooligan she is today

Take care.

Seoniad.
(so much for me ducking out of the e-collar thread )

ETA: The soundtrack to my life is 'the owners have tried everything'. All singing from the same Hymn sheet!
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wilbar
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30-07-2010, 02:31 PM
Originally Posted by Ben Mcfuzzylugs View Post
I would have said that an important part of being a dog trainer is to explain to the owners why something takes time and teach them that you have dogs for 10+ years so it is worth investing a few months in training to reach that goal with no negative sied effects

Communication with the owners is at least as big a part of the job as training the dogs - rather than getting an ego boost from darting in, making a supposed amazing fix, then darting off without giving the owner the long term understanding to deal with any other problems
No doubt once the e collar trainer has left the owner will be tempted to try it themselves fir any other problems that arrive



It is just not possible to quickly fix any deeply held fears and issues
all you can do is supress them

In humans we gave up shock therapy a long time ago, work with the mental state takes time
I agree with that 100%. Much of the work I do with cats is getting owner compliance with a behavioural modification programme. No owner is going to comply unless they firstly understand their cat's motivation for the problem behaviour. Without that fundamental understanding how on earth would they understand what I'm asking them to do & why? Once owners understand why their cat, e.g. refusing to use a litter tray, or scratching their furniture, then the punishment stops & they try to find acceptable ways to accommodate normal behaviours.

I've had owners tell me their cat is being dominant for pooing on their bed. They tell me one of their cats is the "pack leader" or that I've tried to show my cat who's the boss. Now where on earth do you think the "dominant" part came from?!!! Strange how false interpretation of dog behaviour somehow becomes entrenched in the feline world

But once I can explain why their cat does what it does, it makes a lot of difference to the way the owner sees their cat. I'd be a rubbish feline behaviourist if I just went in & put an ecollar on a cat & zapped it when it crapped on the bed!!!! Luckily most cats would just pack their bags & find another home if they were treated like that ~ unfortunately dogs don't have that opportunity.
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