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Location: Wiltshire UK
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 14,404
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16-03-2011, 01:02 PM
A good trainer in any sphere, whether that be with animals or people, has a well stocked toolbox.
They understand that living organisms are motivated by different things;
they understand that they can be motivated towards some things and away from others.
they understand that there are intrinsic and extrinsic motivators.
they understand that dogs are obedient to the laws of learning.
they understand, in other words, that there are a variety of methods to achieve the same end.
They understand that the use of positive punishment has several fatal flaws:
If insufficieint punishment is used, then escalation is required.
If unsuitable punishment is used, then the likelihood of the behaviour diminishing is reduced.
The risks of fallout from the use of coercion is high.
the delivery of punishment eg timing, duration, severity is much more critical than the use of positive reinforcement or negative punishment.
Finally punishing dogs is often far more convenient (for the owner) than the use of other methods, because the choice of punishment means that the owner is not punished (in the short run) by having to put time and effort into training another way..........
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Location: london.uk
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 8,012
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16-03-2011, 01:38 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher 
No, I never said my dogs were untrainable. Tai is very obedient, and so is Ben - actually Ben is more obedient than Tai and sitting and staying - but his one problem is - or rather was - his recall. I don't need to remind you that breeders of huskies and mals virtually all tell you NEVER to let them off leash. That is because it is so difficult to train them not to run off. However, it is possible, we did it with Hal and we did it with Tai - Hal NEVER ran off, he frequently would not come when he was called, but that is totally different from running off, or running away.
There is as much wolf (although of a different kind) in your dog as there is in Ben
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Location: UK
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 5,551
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16-03-2011, 04:02 PM
Originally Posted by ClaireandDaisy
my objection to them is based on morality. Un-necessary cruelty is wrong. It damages the victim and the perpetrator.
The reason 99.99% of people on this forum are against shocking, beating, kicking and burning dogs is simply that they understand that.
I doubt you will get someone who is in denial of that to change with scientific facts. Counselling perhaps.
To put it bluntly, people against them believe they are cruel and abusive, which they are.
I started disliking the idea of shock collars years ago, when some of the dog magazines were discussing them, and I could not even believe that an owner could be so cruel. I read and researched and everything I found, from using them for cribbing horses to toilet training to the use of continual stim, to US gundog training with them (flipping horrible, some sites, in their info) and then just other internet stuff (including Adam's videos!
) and so on made me feel just ill and very angry.Gnasher mentioned she respects her husband's scientific way of looking at things, and also somewhere, some friend was mentioned who in his spare time reads lots of scientific papers to keep up to date with things. So I thought it might be a good idea to point out that as well as the (normal) emotional view, which is totally valid, and which is against cruelty and abuse, is backed up as well by science, as I hoped it may encourage at least more of a look into the whys and wherefores
Wys
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Location: East Midlands, UK
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 8,775
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16-03-2011, 05:58 PM
Originally Posted by Brierley
I think the point is that, technically, there's wolf in every dog, just as there's ape in every human
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Location: Fife, UK
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,695
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16-03-2011, 06:01 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher
No - actually I go to bed when I am tired, in common with the vast majority of the population
I had no understanding of what Ben has kindly posted about electricity - it is all gobbledegook to me - so I will have to read it out to hubby and ask him to translate for me.
(hypothetically) your husband walks out on you tomorrow and leaves the dogs - what will you do? You would HAVE to walk them, train them, play with them....
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Location: london.uk
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 8,012
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16-03-2011, 06:02 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher
I am not talking about that - of course there is wolf in every dog - I am referring to the recent wolf content in Tupacs czechie - if she is going to deny THAT, then really there is no hope for her
there is more wolf in Tupac than your 3 combined and then some
... happy
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Location: Essex, UK
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 14,147
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16-03-2011, 06:59 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher
Are you saying there is no wolf in a CSV
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Location: Cardiff, UK
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,033
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16-03-2011, 08:17 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher
there is nothing confused about Ben!! He knows EXACTLY what he's doing, what he wants do and WHEN he wants to do it!!
Now though, he is only allowed to do it on OUR terms, not his. He gets all the freedom he wants and needs, but he has to come to us when we call him.
Simples
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