Oh right! I thought that section was for dogs like NIs, Pitbulls, American Staffordshire Terriers, etc. Dogs which people call breeds but are not recognised by any KC.

Debs

Which one ?

None which you suggest are breeds under construction.

Lurchers are a type, not a breed, and all Lurchers are crosses so can never become recognised nor be considered a `breed`.

`Working Sheepdog` is just the name used for unpapered BCs by the snobby KC, they are not a different `unrecognised breed`, a `WSD` is a BC which are already recognised as a breed.

Jack Russells are an anomaly, based imo on KC ego because the originator of JRTs refused to have anything to do with the KC because of them recognising the taller versions which were not bred to type as he intended when developing the original breed.
So, after his death, the `show` version gets called after the originator even though the originator had no respect for the taller version and the KC refused to acknowledge his smaller type in what I believe was probably spite just because they could, I don`t feel they have a valid reason for refusing to recognise the original type.
Some people consider a JRT to be crossbreeds or that any terrier cross can be regarded as a JRT but I disagree, there is a definite Standard for JRTs and breeders do breed to type.
Its because of what I consider to be ridiculous KC politics that I decided JRTs are allowed to be entered in the Terrier class should the owners so wish OR they can enter the Unrecognised Breeds class if they prefer, the choice is theirs.

Lab x Poodles are not a breed under construction, they re cross breeds.
It was originally intended to develop a breed but was abandoned because the theory regarding coat type did not hold up, and now every tom dick and harry is putting all sizes of poodles to Labs and Retrievers but are not breeding to type, [ because there is no type to breed to, no Standard exists nor would be possible given the shambles the original idea has become ], they are just churning out F1 crosses.
Having lost the original direction along with any credibility from the originators good if naive intentions, and now being the cause of all manner of `designer dogs` with silly names to match, [ please note I refuse to use the tag given to Lab x Poodles ], the chances of them ever getting formal recognition even if there is a cross-breeder apocalypse resulting in a proper planned breed development, is probably minimal to zero.

Patch, my suggestion for the title that would include Lurchers etc was recognised cross breeds?

Still would`nt be accurate, Lurchers are a type - crossbreeds yes but not the same two crosses going on, a Staffy x Greyhound is a Lurcher, a Saluki x BC is a Lurcher - hence they can`t be considered as a recognised cross despite the historical `type` as the same crossing would need to be the case which it isn`t with Lurchers.

Again, Working Sheepdogs are not a cross, `WSD` is not a breed, they are BCs so are already covered in terms of being a recognised breed.

Jack Russells covered in previous post, a
nd as for Lab x Poodles, no, they are not a `recognised` cross other than by the stupid name given to the crosses which is nothing to do with recognition of the construction / appearance / factor for visual or any other sort of recognisability. For any breed to be considered recognised they do need fit to Standard and be bred to type, which Lab x Poodles and any other cross breeds are not and never could be.

I think it would be wrong and irresponsible to consider them as `recognised crosses` because it would give some sort of credibility to the horrendous designer dog culture, and as Dogsey is the biggest and imo most informative canine forum anywhere on the net I think here we need to make sure as much as possible that people don`t fall for the designer dog clap trap from the breeders who are doing the churning out, adding stupid fake `breed` names, and charging a small fortune from the naive who sadly do fall for it.
If a forum with the kind of influence which Dogsey has because of the knowledge base here, to give any kind of credence to that culture by any implication of recognition of crossbreeds as anything other than what they are would be most irresponsible, so I think the way its already set out in the section is spot on - it gives respect to those of us who love our crossbreeds but without fuelling any fakery about what they are.

My point was the Lurches and J R are recognised as cross breeds no matter what the cross, as are the designer dogs and dogs produced because the person crossing them can, whatever their reason. Depends on how you look at things I supose.

The point is whatever we call dogs that are not recognised I do not think it should include those who are recognised and have been for years just because they are not shown in the UK ie Berger Blane Suisse and the two larger sizes of P. Podengo.

In fairness, the Blanc Suisse is just a name given to white Alsatians, [ GSDs ], to try to get them recognition in their own right because, [ in a nutshell ], of the way the whites are viewed as `undesirable` in the Breed showing world, however whites are recognised as Alsatians, [ GSDs ], and can be registered as their rightful breed, and when it comes to discussing them here on Dogsey a white Alsatian is as ok for discussion in the Pastoral section as any other Alsatian, [ rightly so ], and in our Virtual Show they are absolutely accepted in the Pastoral AV class as what they are - a purebred Alsatian, [ GSD ].

I don`t understand your point regarding the Medio and Grande Podengos - they are purebreds though not yet KC recognised therefore fit into the Unrecognised Breeds section, as do JRTs, [ those bred to type - I don`t think a Terrier cross should be called a JRT because they are not going to be to type or to the JRT Standard ! ], and Lurchers as crosses are catered for in the Crossbreed section, so again all the dogs you have mentioned, [ including BCs who are in Pastoral ], are already catered for correctly here

What is a 'recognised' crossbreed ?

Think you do not understand what I am saying at all. I am saying that because a breed is not on the UK kennel clubs list of those who can show in the UK they are on this forum listed as un-recognised breeds. My contention is that if they are a recognised breed how can they be classified as un-recognised.

Did not know the JRT had a standard any more than the Patterdale or did you mean the Parson Jack Russell Terrier which does have a KC standard and can be shown at KC licensed shows?

All 3 sizes of P. Pods. are recognised by the FCI as is the A. Kelpie as far as I know and the Berger Blanc Suisse is provisionally accepted by the FCI. Your comments about Alsatian and German Shepherd Dog confuse me as I understand them to be the same breed, where and in which countries are they separated? Certainly not by the U K Kennel Club.

However all this is by the way, a breed has to be recognised as a breed to be a breed so there can't be un-recognised breeds only those ‘of a type’ who are wishing to be recognised as a breed but have not as yet been so and are therefore not a breed.

I don't think I can find any way to explain myself further so if you still do not see what I am saying I give up

I could have explained better, those who are known to be cross bred but have a title through use, like a number or sporting and working animals or are designer dogs, non breeds who’s breeding or purpose is understood by those interested in dogs. Lurchers & Fell Terriers etc., and all the exploited poos and doodles. My personally thoughts on the latter ard not being discussed here.

If someone says Cockerpoo we all understand as we all know what a Lurcher is, do you see what I was trying to convey

Ah right. I can see what you are saying, although if a breed isn't yet recognised by our KC, then it is still classed here as an unrecognised breed. I'm on a few other forums, and each of them go by the KC of their Country's origin.

I think everyone has seen or an idea of a JRT or a Lurcher, as they do have a type, even if there's no standard. As for any other Designer breeds, though, they dont even have a type, so I dont think they should be included, or you will have everyone with a F1 cross wanting their dogs named too ! JMO