OH yes!

IMO they are the same thing but to differing degrees, depending on the dog's personal prey preference, which is why trying to transfer problematic predatory chasing onto a (to the owner) more desirable target does not tend to work with those dogs who are highly committed to live prey but only moderately committed to ball or toy chasing or social hunting.

It's no different to different value food rewards producing different results - too low value and the dog isn't motivated, too high and the excitement or fixation on the food may actually interfer with learning to required behaviour. The perceived value of the prize affects the effort worth going to obtain it.

How appealing what is being offered will also be affected by the alternative options. Ball v nothing can make the ball appealing, ball v bunny will never work with some dogs. Likewise dog biscuit v nothing may be effective, dog biscuit v meeting another dog may not be but for some dogs roast chicken may trump meeting another dog, or chasing the bunny- meal obtained, hunt/predation concluded.

Predatory behaviour is not expressed the same way by all dogs. As Coppinger says, predatory behaviour involves orient, eye-stalk, chase, grab, bite, kill-bite, dissect, consume. However different breeds can typically abort or virtually bypass certain stages.

Collies have strong eye stalk but should have repressed kill-bite, as should soft mouthed gun dogs, livestock guardians have inhibited dissect, sighthounds have a much more developed chase than eye-stalk, terriers generally have a strong grab and kill bite.

A dog can still be in prey drive whichever part of that sequence they are in, and at whatever intensity, it does not have to be the entire suite of predatory behaviours to qualify as part of prey drive and the intensity and determination can depend on the arousal level, which will be higher when the dog is more excited by more exciting prey.

To some dogs intangible shadows and lights are prey, sometimes to a compulsive level, but they can never grab hold of light or shadow, with there being a hypothesis that this inability to reach an satisfying end point is part of what contributes to the compulsive behaviour in predisposed dogs.

Some dogs who stare intensely and fixedly at something stationary can be in an exaggerated orientate/eye section of prey drive, even if they don't move, as they wait for the "prey" to "break" and move, this can be clear in some dogs while they are waiting for a toy to be produced, or for a release command to be allowed to grab something.

All prey drive, imo which can be performed playfully (practise behaviour) or in earnest, without that determining which drive they are in and with the behaviour potentially being intrinsically rewarding with or without the handler's involvement.

Even those dogs whose involvement is dependent on owner involvement are probably exhibiting overlapping pack and predatory drives -a dog may be motivated to go on a pack hunt with the added social reinforcement but not be motivated to "hunt" by itself.

I cant agree that chasing a ball is prey drive, its just that, chasing a ball.

As my eldest girl got older and less able to run and chase, I used to roll the ball towards her on the ground - she loved her ball time and I would never have taken that pleasure from her even when she got weak and frail.. When the ball reached her, she would take her nose and push/flick it back to me, I cant see that as being anything to do with "prey" unless she wanted me to "kill" it

Perhaps the difference is that when the game is over the balls are collected, washed and put away until the next time

Oh and the same dog could "wink" when asked to do so. I have never known a dog before or since that could do that and probably never will and no I dont believe a dog being able to wink is anything to do with "prey drive"

No i disagree, (sorry) i think it is a mid set.

Mav isnt high drive, yes hes stylish & has power, but alot of that is "put in" by me. Hes fast & committed, but again to a certain extent thats taught, its not "natural" in him, ive had to bring it out

Zola however (not quite so naturally stylish) but all the drive in the world, tons of "want", everything she does is fast & focased & will work all day long.

My collies would play/carry it, either a fox pelt or toy.

We have two toys made of rabbit, they like them (alot) but they just see as a toy.

They like to "chase" everything & anything but no killer extint. The BSD has more prey drive when out, but again is more turnedv on by the chase

I dont do flyball, but know collies, lol, is it poss shes just racing the other dog? if you put collies together (out infield) the majority of their games are chased based arent they?

Excellent post ~ completely agree.

Predatory behaviour is a sequence of behaviours & humans have bred for certain parts of the predatory sequence to be more prevalent than others, depending on what functions we want the dogs to perform. And in some cases the sequence gets interrupted or stopped during different parts.

I know more about the predatory behaviour sequences in cats & even the internal physiology changes during the different parts of the sequence, with "gaps" in between. If something goes wrong in the sequence, or the cat never manages to complete the sequence, then sometimes this can be the cause of eating disorders in cats, e.g. anorexia, obesity, wool-sucking, pica.

I suppose the way dogs have been bred for human functionality means that having the predatory sequence interrupted at various stages, has meant that they don't develop eating disorders ~ but it can still lead to various other problem behaviours!

IMO the use of toys is effectively a substitute for predatory behaviour allowing the dog to act out normal instincts, but through learning, the dog continues to perform parts of the sequence, getting rewards from owners/trainers or from the internal drive mechanisms being satisfied.

If for instance i throw a ball with the ball chucker - which will go a good distance & at the same time a rabbit breaks cover, what does it say about the dog that chases the ball & not the rabbit

That its "into " its toy!!!!!

That the ingrained, rehearsed, practised & classically-conditioned learning of toy chasing is higher than the innate prey drive triggered by the sight of a moving rabbit!