Operant v classical conditioning

When working with fear aggression I often use food and toys to reward the dog for none aggression.

I know many people use food/toys to reward the dog for looking at them and ignoring the other dog/person or for some other incompatible behaviour but I tend to just reward for being ''good'' around the bad trigger.

I feel that the average owner has enough to think about without looking out for (often quite subtle) behaviours to reinforce, also I ultimatly want the dog to just plain like other people and dogs in a relatively short period of time!

What are your thoughts?

Adam

Depends on your definition of "good" behaviour. Not all dogs will just lunge/bark and I don't think it would be good to inadvertently teach a dog that it's good to stand there being stressed. I went to a "grumpy" dog workshop and one of the dogs wasn't your typical reactive dog - she didn't bark or lunge at the dummy dog but she showed visible signs of stress, e.g. yawning, her body language, etc. The owner was attending the workshop to teach the dog she didn't have to be afraid of dogs, and I think if you don't know what signs/behaviour to look out for and reward from a dog, you may just displace the obvious reaction such as barking with a quieter but still mentally damaging behaviour such as stress. Just because your dog is no longer making a racket when it's near dogs, doesn't mean it's happy, it just means it's learnt to be quiet. Keep piling up the stress and you never know when the dog might snap.

Odd title. Nearly put me off.

I reward for anythign "good" that isn't what I am trying to cease. I hate to agree with you, it makes me feel most uneasy , but I have to on this occasion. Damn damn damn.

completely agree

i think when dealing with fear and nerves you should just reward the dog for being n the environment and not concern yourself with OC training protocols such as Look and Treat.

its counter productive, as it may train in a brilliant eye contact exercise, but not really deal with the CER by altering associations, and it also doesnt take into account the handler whose focus is spread thin thru their own fear, worry, and stress, and wont have for timing and schedules.

besides, OC is over rated.

However, i would also be teaching the owner to understand dog body langauge and energy levels, so as to tap into the emotion of it all, including that of the human.
And i wouldnt be in a hurry.
In addition to piling out association treats, id also be performing some very slow guided walking exercises for stripping away the shut down emotions and thus improving cognitive ability.

Once you have calmed dog and owner and altered the CER, then is the time, if necessary, to introduce 'dog training'

the title is exactly how i see this issue.

so it magnetised me straight to the thread.

I hate "labels", as you know KW. That's why it nearly put me off - but not quite!

Nice to see you again.

....traitor!!! tar n feathering legal?

a-ha, i just worked out who you are!

good day to you

I think you can use both, BUT you do have to be careful that "getting a behaviour" isn't outweighing dealing with the emotional factors.

It's most important to work on the emotions and like Kruse, I prefer to simply use association - deliver lots of food (or toys, but food is easier as it's not so likely to overshadow any learning due to excitement) and be generous. I like to use Jean Donaldson's "bar open/bar closed" method. I find it works well and it helped my own dog, who was fearful due to being attacked 3 times in close succession, to feel relaxed around other dogs again.

I certainly wouldn't poo pooh using OC (e.g. "look at me" ). Certainly I konw of people who have great success with, for example, the "Control Unleashed" type exercises.

We must remember though, whatever we think, that good old Pavlov "is always on the shoulder" so even when we are doing OC, we are also, using CC .....

The power of association is very strong

Wys
x

You do need the owners to understand what being 'good' means though.

You could end up with an owner rewarding a dog for staring hard at another with evil thoughts.

So you have to have a basic understanding of how body language works---after all tail wagging can mean many things and rewarding for wagging a tail at another dog might not have the desired effect either!


I don't think you can make dogs like people/other dogs that easily. It takes a long time to build a trust depending on so many other factors.
rune