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Gnasher
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02-08-2013, 11:41 AM
Originally Posted by FluffHippo View Post
Personally I would love my dogs to hunt rabbits as it would save me a few pounds on food each week. I don't see it as cruel. The dogs would do it naturally anyway, it exercises them and it cuts down the numbers of rabbits. On a part of Epping forest there is a field myself and my daughter call the rabbit field because there are hundreds.
My boys regularly catch rabbits. They are mainly walked around open fields of wheat which are full of bunnies. They love to flush out rabbits, and frequently will catch and eat them. I don't see this as cruel either, I see it as the natural rhythm of a carniverous animal's life. Whole rabbit is extremely healthy and nutritious for them, and as you say saves a few bob on the feed bills. As dog lovers, we should all appreciate that every time they play with an object - a ball, whatever - it is all ritualised hunting - and to allow them to do the real thing to my mind is not cruel, it is healthy and natural. Unlike us humans, dogs will not kill for pleasure, they kill because it is part of their instinct to do so - to kill and eat. Just because they are lucky enough to be fed every day by their humans, does not in any way diminish their desire to hunt for food. A dog will eat until it is satiated, vomit, eat that vomit and then eat more food if available. This natural instinct is inherited from their wolf ancestors, and is entirely natural and certainly is not cruel.
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Apache
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02-08-2013, 11:56 AM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
and is entirely natural and certainly is not cruel.
Try telling that to the rabbit.
I guess the equivalent in human terms is to imagine yourself walking through a nice sunny forest glade one day and you hear a noise. You turn round and see a Grizzly Bear who is twice your size, can run twice your speed and can climb trees.
What do you do?
Try to imagine the panic you would feel at knowing you are probably not going to survive this day. So you run and you can hear the bear getting closer, so you run faster and change direction, but the bear is quicker and also changes direction and eventually you are too exhausted to run any more and at that point your feel his breath and the mouth of the bear biting into your neck.
Ah, I hear you say, ... it's not cruel, there are far too many humans anyway.
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Gnasher
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02-08-2013, 12:05 PM
Originally Posted by Apache View Post
Try telling that to the rabbit.
I guess the equivalent in human terms is to imagine yourself walking through a nice sunny forest glade one day and you hear a noise. You turn round and see a Grizzly Bear who is twice your size, can run twice your speed and can climb trees.
What do you do?
Try to imagine the panic you would feel at knowing you are probably not going to survive this day. So you run and you can hear the bear getting closer, so you run faster and change direction, but the bear is quicker and also changes direction and eventually you are too exhausted to run any more and at that point your feel his breath and the mouth of the bear biting into your neck.
Ah, I hear you say, ... it's not cruel, there are far too many humans anyway.
The rabbit, as a herbivore, and therefore carniverous prey, permanently lives on its wits, it is part of THEIR nature, just as it is part of my dogs' nature to kill and eat them.

You are being far too anthropomorphic Apache, and no harm in that, I understand and respect your point of view. But you must understand mine as well. We are all animals - kill or be killed if the fragility of civilisation were removed and we all had to live au naturel, on our wits and our ability to hunt for food, build shelter etc. etc.

Your example of being pursued by a grizzly conjures up a terrifying picture, I have to say! But the grizzly bear is only following HIS instinct, his desire to kill me for food (? not sure if grizzlies eat meat) and to protect his territory and his cubs. Whereas of course I would be absolutely **** scared, how could I condemn or "blame" the grizzly - he is after all following his natural instincts, and I am invading his territory so were I to be killed by this grizzly, then tough, I was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I am not a hypocrite
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catrinsparkles
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02-08-2013, 12:16 PM
I stand in the middle on this really. I am very anti blood sports and would rather my dogs didn't hunt and kill things but on the rare occasions that they have I try to see it as just part of nature....that's not to belittle what a rabbit feels when it's being chases as, like any sentient being, it will feel fear and pain.

I object to blood sports because I feel they are completely unfair and taking pleasure in another beings death should not be described as a sport!
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Gnasher
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02-08-2013, 12:42 PM
Originally Posted by catrinsparkles View Post
I stand in the middle on this really. I am very anti blood sports and would rather my dogs didn't hunt and kill things but on the rare occasions that they have I try to see it as just part of nature....that's not to belittle what a rabbit feels when it's being chases as, like any sentient being, it will feel fear and pain.

I object to blood sports because I feel they are completely unfair and taking pleasure in another beings death should not be described as a sport!
I object to blood sports too - any killing for fun. Killing another living thing should never be for "fun". I would be more than happy to shoot or trap my own food if I had to, to survive.

I note your lack of sympathy to me being pursued and killed by a hungry grizzly!!
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muddymoodymoo
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02-08-2013, 12:55 PM
My dogs eat rabbits that had been caught with the use of (I am pressuming here) ferrets and dogs. I pay dearly for these rabbits. So I would be glad if my dogs would, for once, not cost me money. Rabbits are just too numerous and are considered vermin. And by nature programmed to be chased, killed and eaten by predators. So no fluffy feelings here.
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Gnasher
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02-08-2013, 12:59 PM
Originally Posted by muddymoodymoo View Post
My dogs eat rabbits that had been caught with the use of (I am pressuming here) ferrets and dogs. I pay dearly for these rabbits. So I would be glad if my dogs would, for once, not cost me money. Rabbits are just too numerous and are considered vermin. And by nature programmed to be chased, killed and eaten by predators. So no fluffy feelings here.
Well said, at the end of the day we are all animals, and animals - whether prey or predator - have to survive on their wits and their hunting skills. Whether you are hunting a blade of grass, a blackberry or a bunny!

I do dislike killing for killing's sake though, and can see no fun at all in blood sports or shooting for fun.
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muddymoodymoo
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02-08-2013, 01:09 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
Well said, at the end of the day we are all animals, and animals - whether prey or predator - have to survive on their wits and their hunting skills. Whether you are hunting a blade of grass, a blackberry or a bunny!

I do dislike killing for killing's sake though, and can see no fun at all in blood sports or shooting for fun.
I don't like killing for fun.

Killing for food is another matter - but we need to eat and somebody has to do the killing, and I don't think that I was programmed by nature to be a herbivore.
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Maiseymoo
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02-08-2013, 01:16 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
The rabbit, as a herbivore, and therefore carniverous prey, permanently lives on its wits, it is part of THEIR nature, just as it is part of my dogs' nature to kill and eat them.

You are being far too anthropomorphic Apache, and no harm in that, I understand and respect your point of view. But you must understand mine as well. We are all animals - kill or be killed if the fragility of civilisation were removed and we all had to live au naturel, on our wits and our ability to hunt for food, build shelter etc. etc.

Your example of being pursued by a grizzly conjures up a terrifying picture, I have to say! But the grizzly bear is only following HIS instinct, his desire to kill me for food (? not sure if grizzlies eat meat) and to protect his territory and his cubs. Whereas of course I would be absolutely **** scared, how could I condemn or "blame" the grizzly - he is after all following his natural instincts, and I am invading his territory so were I to be killed by this grizzly, then tough, I was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I am not a hypocrite
The main difference being that this grizzly who is doing what nature intended and having you for lunch would then be hunted down and murdered for doing so.

Typical double standards as usual. That's not aimed at you Gnasher but humans in general
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Apache
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02-08-2013, 01:41 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
if the fragility of civilisation were removed and we all had to live au naturel, on our wits and our ability to hunt for food, build shelter etc. etc.

Your example of being pursued by a grizzly conjures up a terrifying picture, I have to say! But the grizzly bear is only following HIS instinct, his desire to kill me for food (? not sure if grizzlies eat meat) and to protect his territory and his cubs. Whereas of course I would be absolutely **** scared,

I am not a hypocrite
"if the fragility of civilisation were removed" - That's just the point Gnasher, it hasn't been removed. You CHOOSE to let your dogs hunt rabbits because you place no value upon a rabbits life, as you say, there are lots of them around so why worry.

I am glad you thought my example of being chased by a Grizzly was terrifying, because it is. And yes they do eat meat, in fact every year many hikers are killed by them and often they are partially eaten while still alive.

Have you ever been out in the wilderness with dangerous creatures around, .. big cats, bears, alligators, etc? I can tell you it raises your awareness of human vulnerability and how ill equipped we are to fend off any predator. Hence, i do indeed side with the gentle little rabbit because i can imagine how terrifying it must be to be chased by an enormous fanged animal.

In summary, no personification applies here, just the empirical knowledge, the sheer blind terror, of being chased by something very deadly.
Live and let live i say.
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