I know my limitations and take on dogs I can manage I think people using these things perhaps are trying to take on dogs they cannot safely manage any other way or want a quick fix for problems that either take a long time to fix or are unfixable as they are hard wired into the dog for some reason.

I have similar thoughts as to why it seems to be the big dogs whose owners have no proper recall over who are generally 'off lead' - they've not taught them to walk on lead properly - dog will be dragging them along and making them look a bit useless and stupid - so they'd rather let the dog run about off lead than look like that. Quite apart from there being NO pleasure at all in being out for a walk with a dog on a lead when that dog is just straining at the lead all the time.

When my dog is on lead she isn't pulling on the lead at all. On her retractable lead she doesn't ever even get to the full length of it. She's walking about the same distance from me as she would be most of the time 'off lead'.

So when I hear anyone say it is 'cruel to keep a dog on a lead all the time' - I assume that's because, on lead, their dog is making it quite obvious they want to be OFF the lead and is pulling away the whole time. Otherwise what's the problem and what's the difference?

Completely agree with you about leads, I have lived where we have little chance for off lead walks for many years mine don't suffer we have long lunge lines and flexileads, they rarely pull only if we see a pigeon do they try to chance it, other than that they have plenty of room to dash about and walk quite nicely.

He is a bully, I once received some really nasty pms from him saying things that he couldn't say on the forum, those pms got him banned.

He used to be a dog handler in the police in the USA, he then said he was a dog trainer training dogs and policemen.

If I remember right he said that shock collars are reward training because when the dog does what he wants the shock stops so the dog is rewarded.

If you want our dog to go off lead there are plenty of safe places for them to go provided you clean up after them. Tennis courts, secure paddocks, indoor schools etc. there is no need for a dog that the owner can't control to be running loose out of control. Some owners have bought fields and made them secure so their dogs can run off lead in safety. If your dog doesn't come back when called then he is out of control.

Indeed, that is the definition of positive punishment (not reward based)

Anyone who has ever had an Electromyogram [EMG] or a Nerve Conduction Test, both of which use a very low-voltage electrical current, will know that they bluddy hurt.

Anyone who has not and thinks that an e-collar does not cause pain to a dog - I suggest they should try one of the above tests, and then still say that such a collar does not cause pain.

Yep, an everyone who claims to have tried it on themselves puts it just off a low setting round their arm or other boney part of their body, where water content is low, meaning the shock will have a lesser effect.

Never heard of anyone putting it on maximum round their neck. But then again, that would be nuts...but you know what would be over more nuts....doing it to a large dog, especially with a history of aggression....

I think it's more a case of needing a "quick fix". I would guess that many people using e-collars can't be bothered to train in a drawn out manner as they want an instant fix "right now". Inexperience and lack of knowledge on other training methods comes into play too of course.

I've never used a shock collar and I never intend to, but I had to pick up on a recent post that refered to 'BAT' and 'LAT' and then later, to 'positive punishment'.

Why do some people resort to a solution that appears to offer an instant 'fix' and is extremely straightforward to understand? I think that's your answer in many cases, sadly.

Sharing knowledge on dog behaviour adn developing a better understanding of what makes a dog tick is brilliant and it's also great that through the internet and so many books on the subject, we have more access to knowledge than ever before. However, I honestly believe that all this is a double-edged sword, because there is just so much information out there and so many different accreditation bodies and qualifications and new terminology to describe behaviours and means of managing them are springing up every week! (well - every year, maybe)

We're forgetting along the way that dog training is not an exact science and so much relies on observation, timing and empathy - regardless of which school of thought you follow. These qualities only come with what natural ability you have at the start, plus practice.

Nick, I am not having a pop at you at all: I think you have made some excellent points and I agree with you on 99% of it (the 1% is an inference - as I read it- that people who do not immediately understand terms like LAT and BAT are somehow lacking in ability...but that's just how I read it and you might not have meant that at all)

I know people who have used shock collars. The first was just plain lazy; acquired a gundog breed as a lifestyle accessory and couldn't be bothered to put in the groundwork with basic training.

The second bought their dog after considerable research and are very expereinced and practical people. There was one chasing problem they could not solve - try as they might. They consulted lots of trainers and tried lots of alternative strategies before using a collar - just once - with immediate results. Yes, they were lucky because the dog associated the shock with the moving object, not the ground, or some random object that was there at the time, but it worked and as a result, bar the unpleasant experience of being shocked, the dog lead a fuller life as a result. It also worked because the owners had impeccable timing and an understanding of their dog's character.

Cases like this, are the ones that make me sit on the fence when it comes to an out and out ban.

I've also read about using shock collars to deter hunting dogs in the US from approaching snakes. To me, this is a whole different issue, because a shock is no way more traumatic than a rattlesnake bite, which can be fatal. It's all very well saying, "don't hunt' or 'don't take your dog where there might be snakes', but I would accept that this scenario is a world away from the lazy pet owner.

As I said, I can't ever see myself being in a situation where I had to use one, but I can see the attraction to a person who is struggling with their dog and is baffled by the behaviour-based jargon out there ....... and then hears an account from a person who says, "collar on dog - dog chases sheep - dog gets a nasty shock when he gets up to sheep - dog doesn't do it again"

Of course, that does not make it the right choice by any means, but I suspect it is a contributing factor to why soem people choose this route, especially if they are already at their wit's end and desperately searching for a solution.

I'm interested in what you said about snakes I think all mine have been wary/scared of snakes quite naturally to the point a couple would be really scared of my husbands black belt if it was on the floor or bed. Never occurred to me any would need deterring from going near them !


Sorry off topic just curious.