And don't forget in the 1st video when he puts the choke collar on, he gets in in her MOUTH and round her neck!!

Thats good to know!!

I dont think you can compare the 2 types of heelwork as one is obviously competition level obedience (and lets face it, who wants their dogs to walk to heel like that all the time?) and one is simple gundog heelwork which is far less strict.

Plus, he didnt put the choke collar in the dogs mouth on purpose so lets give him a break for that simple mistake, we all make them. I read the posts and then watched the video. I was expecting the guy with the lab to be pulling his dog around with the choke collar in it's mouth (I thought maybe he thought that method was better!) and belting it when it put a step wrong from what i'd read on this thread.

I'm not condoning the guys methods or saying the collies werent happy and willing but from the emotive use of language, I was expecting to watch something different.

Disgusting.
He also whops the dog (who is doing nothing wrong) with the lead. She looks all the time so submissive, unhappy and sad. Makes me so mad.


Me too!

Wys
x

How many dogs do you see walking on check chains that are loose? They are ALWAYS tight, often on the wrong way and IMO shouldn't be available like they are.

Obviously there is a difference between the performance of both dogs. What is important to note is that principle by which you teach performance heeling via rewards is the same you apply to simple loose leash walking.

The "leave it" video was very good. I've never really looked at YouTube. How do I find more GOOD videos, particularly for training leave it and walking on the lead?

Also I don't use a clicker, can I still use the techniques?

Yup totaly - heres one I ment to post
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFgtqgiAKoQ

I find you tube great! although like all things they are editid so in real life it take longer
You can train without a clicker - use a word like 'YES' just before you reward and the dog will learn that the word means that was the time they got it right
The clicker is easy tho and is better than the word cos timing is easier

As a newbie I hope no one will be offended if I post here.

I am a total convert to clicker, and I make no apologies for that. I am fortunate in that the person who helps me train my dogs has the patience and understanding of a saint.

Seeing this thread makes me wonder, however, why more people don't use the technique I was shown to obtain a relaxed walk on the lead. Take a longish training lead (one very well known company calls them "control" leads) with clips on both ends. One end round your waist leaves both hands free. Attach the other to your dog as usual. As you walk keep asking your dog to touch your hand (much easier with the larger breeds) and click and reward each and every touch. That is why you need two hands free. Never allow your dog to self reward by wandering off after the next interesting smell, just gently move in the opposite direction a step, and wait until you have his attention before walking on. I have watched the trainer who helps me sometimes spending 20 minutes or more getting the dogs attention but the results if you are both patient and consistent are stunning. And I must confess that there are times when I am out and about with the dogs when a lead round the waist rather than in my hand is so convenient that I will use the lead that way for my own convenience.

For me the joy of this method is that it can be used to achieve anything from a dog capable of walking nicely beside you both on and off the lead to championship standard heeling depending on the result you are looking for. In the past I have been involved in training gun dogs using choke chains and constant repetition but as far as I am concerned it is a dark corner I would never want to return to.

And to be sure you can train this way without a clicker. The clicker is a marker, no more or less. It is a very precise marker because it doesn't have a tone that varies if you are tired or stressed, and it is more instant than voice and so easier to time to the behaviour you are trying to encourage. I also use a whistle and if I don't happen to have a clicker with me then I will use voice.

I hope this helps.

Just a short note to Loki's mum - I do not condone choke chains and my dog does not have one - but they are not "ALWAYS" tight my parents have over the years had four german shepherds who all wore choke chains and not one of them ever walked with a tight chain, they were all loose leadwalkers.

On the matter of loose lead walking - I have recently been to puppy classes with my 22 week old husky/samoyed where they teach the step then reward and within 2 days Missy is doing at least 20 steps between treats - I think it is a fantastic method (apart from her sharp teeth when she is taking the treat - she does it gently but boy are those puppy teeth sharp)