Azz, I would think it would be illegal to physically harm someone through ill intent anyway, regardless of your method.

It's not police dogs I'm worried about it's the one's owned by idiots and thugs, who think "oh it's illegal to carry knives around now what's the next best thing?"

Any clips of that on youtube? Would be interested in seeing that.

It is, but carrying knives (or other weapons) is illegal. I guess my point is that (too many?) unsavoury people are doing PP with their dogs - people who are probably the last type of owners some of these dogs need. :/

I'm not sure really. I'm not sure that many of those type can be bothered putting time and effort and consistency in...or that they can exercise enough self control, respect and positive attitudes around these dogs for their "PP dogs" to actually be reliable.....far more likely to have a nervous, mixed up dog, the type that you pick up bad vibes from the second you see them. If the owners do have what it takes and so does their dog then I'd think it more likely that the dog was an "actual PP dog" because they may well need one, and perhaps they are not so daft as to think "showing off" with a gobby dog is any sort of deterant to the people in their world, whatever that world might be like. If its one full of knives, guns, and criminal activity then I am sure they will realise that a dog can be shot, stabbed.....as much as anyone else does.

If its the "London riot type" person your talking about, i.e. not exactly the top of the chain...do you see them spending years training, exercising and socialising their dog, whilst providing consistency and care..to then go out on some sort of canine weapon frenzy?

i think that with regards to knives, the sort of people that carry them are not the sort of people who would take the time to PP train a dog. They have staffies and other status dogs, they tend to revel in the fact they show aggression to other dogs, not to people.

RE PP itself. If i could afford a PP dog, probably from A1K9 and nowhere else, i would. End. I used to work at a yard with some horses worth at least 4/5x what your average person earns in a year and we had 4 guarddog GSDs. quiet as anything, you could go up and fuss them, they were fine with strangers, and i have no idea how they managed to train them, but were trained that their work started either on command, ie to bite, or in the dark, when there was just the 2 girls that lived on site in. No idea how they did the training, but for the peace of mind they gave, they were worth every penny - and they weren't cheap. My gran (RIP) had a guard dog about, gosh 20 years ago now? and she always used to say that she couldn't sleep without knowing it was nearby.

If done properly, i think they are a real asset, and largely, it is more for the peace of mind, than a dog trained to attack. Most scummy kids who've done it haven't done it properly. But banning it won't change that, it's illegal to carry a knife, but they still do, and that's more obvious on a day to day basis.

I also totally agree that a dog that's poorly trained with a revolting temperment is 100x more dangerous than a trained PP dog.

Is it common practise to tie the dogs up and then get them to lunge (how much is that damaging their necks?)



Would you trust these people with a PP 'trained' dog?

I'd suggest there's perhaps a second line on the dog, as the handler in the second video doesn't look big or strong enough to restrain it. It's not something I saw when I was involved with training my girls, but then we only did the basics, and never got to the point where you had to use the 'out' command.

I haven't watched the videos fully, I'm catching up with messages elsewhere whilst having a glass of wine before I go and start tea, but to be honest, from what I saw, I didn't like how they were going about training. I've never seen a dog trained like that for manwork (chained rather than restrained by handler), and to be allowed to bite repeatedly without *winning* the sleeve.

Ex husband had a Beauvier. Since his friend was a dog trainer, he had it trained in PP. First thing, the dog had to be very responsive and obedient to the handler, which this dog was. After basic obedience the dog could then advance to PP, or what was then called Guard and Attack. The dog had to have a great "out". Once they learn they can grab hold of the arm, or leg or whatever and bite, many dogs do not want to let go. This trainer was very big on "out" being the most important command. Most dogs will bite if provoked enough, but getting them to let go is key.

The dogs were all trained with the handler or trainer holding the leash, and wearing a harness. In the second video I don't understand why the presa canario wasn't attaching the hand that held the stick.

Just to balance it out as azz's videos seem to be highlighting the not so good parts...

What kind of collar is that CC?



I know there are good and bad (does it seem to correlate with the type of breed used too? )

That will teach me for not watching right until the end!

But...there are many other disciplines and training that uses not so good methods, not just pp training, and I quite like the videos that I have watched of these guys training methods.