I don't think PP trained dogs are more dangerous than thug's dogs but I do think that SOME of the dogs trained by pet people can be just as dangerous as thug's dogs. My personal feeling is it is a tricky thing to dabble in. That said I also think encouraging herding in a pet collie isn't too clever a thing to do either.
I think dogs have natural drives, it doesn't mean they should be encouraged, it does mean you should know your dog/ breed and respect the drives that are there.

I don't understand why anyone would want to do HTM either though!!! It's all down to personal choice at the end of the day and I am all for that!

I have mixed views. For the right dog and with the proper training, I think it is ok. One of the old Dogsey members Shona, used to do PP training with her rottis and I've worn the sleeve with her Kaos (who's bite on it was gentle but very firm - I would say he was holding me rather than biting).

However, I also believe that things can go wrong. There are enough cases of police dogs biting without command. (I appreciate not pp dogs, but we're talking really here about 'bite work') Maybe the dogs that have done this would have ended up biting people anyway, but from what I've seen (TV, youtube clips, etc), bitework is taught by getting the dog excited, so they quickly learn that biting is fun. Some dogs will find it more exciting/fun than others.

There have been a few posts saying that they think a well trained pp dog is safer than an unsocialised non-trained dog. I think that is partly true, but what about one that hasn't been properly trained or has been well trained but then handled by someone who has little control?

There are bad trainers right across the dog world, so I can't believe they don't exist in pp work. Trainers don't even necessarily have to be 'bad', but to teach something like pp work, 'not bad' isn't good enough.

As a real generalisation most dogs don't want to attack a human. I don't have statistics to support this, but from my own experience of when dogs have bitten, it has mostly been as a last resort - when they are scared & cornered or hurt.

For thousands of years we have been conditioning our dogs not to bite the hand that feeds them; a human aggressive dog wasn't even accepable to those involved in dog fighting.

To my mind, PP work goes against all this - it is encouraging a dog that biting a human is good. So I think that either a poorly trained pp dog or a well trained pp dog in the wrong hands is a very dangerous combination.

Not saying it should be banned, but I would not want to see it rise in popularity as I'm convinced this will just lead to trouble.

I agree that if it became a fashion it may not be a good thing. However certain fashions are already there...

It's not only teaching that "biting is fun" either.

I would think that starting with poor temprament wouldnt serve any purpose. I also think if no body started anywhere, then no one would get good at PP training, so everyone needs to start somewhere, that somewhere should be a good stable temprament and socialisation IMHO, not that I know much about it.but knowing your dog would also be up there IMHO.

even a poorly trained dog can be handled with care, learned from and not cause harm to someone if the handler has sense. Just look at how well some of the Dogsey rescue dogs are looked after on here, dogs that will/have bitten in the past through completely different reasons, yet they are not running as around killing/biting people...

I actually think most of us are fundamentally agreeing with each other

For thousands of years man has lived with canines canines but only about 150 years ago the dobermann was bred to protect their handlerso I dont think proper PP training goes against anything there...not if you are starting with a good temprament.

Ppl always compare dobes to rotts and GSD but they are not a herding breed that guards...they are dobes. Think im going off track here...

People think FCRs are like black Goldens or pointy faced Labs, but they are totally different. You need to know your breed

...and what about an impeccably trained dog with an impeccable temperament but an awful owner? The sort that wouldn't think twice about using his or her 'weapon'

Ppl have killed with their bare hands in this country before now....no-one cut their hands off..

But that wasn't down to the training of manwork, but the type of training, and possibly the wrong sort of dog to use for manwork? I know when I did this with my Labradors, they were assessed first, to ensure they were suitable, and also because different methods are used to train individual dogs.

It's a while since I did any manwork training now, as I never practise it away from a controlled environment, but there were two basic commands involved, which were 'Watch him' and 'Stop him', the first involved running up to the 'Criminal' and barking, the reward would be the sleeve presented for them to bite and retrieve, if they did it wrong, they got no reward. The principles were the same as a game of tuggy, with the trainer undertaking a controlled game, where the dog would win, and trot off with the sleeve, which they had to carry all the way back to the car, if they dropped it, they lost it.

During the time I went to classes, there was one incident where a GSD dropped the sleeve and went back to the trainer. All they did was raise both arms (sleeveless) above their head, and the dog lost interest straight away.

that sort of person shouldnt have any dog pp trained or not,lets face it they wouldnt own a chi would they.......