Ignoring the tone here
But then how do you define discipline if it is not something that is used to reduce the likelyhood of the behaviour happening again? Which in dog training is the definition of punishment

and Reisu and Ramble - butt in all you like, thankyou

Ben Mcfuzzylugs your explanation in post 147 and above makes perfect sense to me

I would also add there is 'experience' and then there is 'experience' , some people have lots of 'experience' of doing things incorrectly and of all the people I know you are one of only a few people I would trust with any dog of mine .

Hi June as an experienced person what kind of 'discipline' is important and what would kind of 'discipline' would you advocate using on a dog . Is it the type of thing CM demonstrates pulling/prodding/choking/flooding/manhandling dogs into submissions, do tell .

I must be watching different CM programmes than some of you on here I don't see CM doing any of the above to a level that is unacceptable. It's how you perceive such actions I suppose:

pulling - I would see as guiding.

prodding (I presume you are talking about when he kind of does the 'dog bite' with his hand, trying to mimic the mother's action when one of her pups is doing wrong) - have used this with my Chis and it works wonders. It isn't physical punishment. It just makes the dog aware that you are not happy about what he/she is doing.

Choking - I presume you mean on a choke chain. Surely if the dog was uncomfortable, the dog would stop pulling - exactly why the CC is used?

Flooding - not sure what is meant by this.

Manhandling - I have not seen CM do this?

Somebody mentioned earlier that aggression is accepted by us regarding our dogs. NO. I do not accept aggression in any way, shape or form from my Chis. They may be small dogs but accepting aggression is not the way to go IMO.

We all have differing views on how to manage our dogs. CM's methods work for mine and I am sure there are many dogs out there that his methods do not work for. That is the fantastic thing about CHOICE! I don't see that CM is WRONG for his methods just different to other Trainers, that is all

Trouble is ....when your arousal level is up your adrenalin level rises....when this happens your pain threshold goes up. Hence the dog doesn't always feel that the pain. I believe this is the main reason damage is done with Check/choke chains.


It is a psychological term for exposing an animal to the thing it is fearful of in a major way....ie - if you were afraid of spiders locking you in a room full until you calmed down.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flooding_(psychology)



I think you are right about people chosing thier own method. I don't like CM, but I am sure there are people out there that don;t like the way I treat my dogs.

RE - aggression. Its a difficult one and I think it depends on what you would class as aggression. Recently Tassle has not been well, she has been snarky with the other dogs and had a snap at my hand when I pushed looking at the area that was hurt. This as far as I can see was aggression but also acceptable...it was my fault, I pushed to far and she warned me off. I won't tell her off for that.
My dogs also occassionaly have a grump at each other. Never an out and out fight, but they growl at each other if one comes too near when they are eating....again - as far as I am concerned this is fair enough. Other people may not like it but my dogs fit together fine, they just like thier own space, but wouild you call thier behaviour aggression?

I suppose regarding the choke chain thing, I really shouldn't be butting my nose in on that one. I've only had toy breeds, so therefore have never needed to use the CC. Can't really comment on what I've not experienced

As for the flooding, thanks for the explanation of that. I'm not really liking the sound of animal/human being forced to face their fears. I suppose if it is done by a professional, it may be acceptable but definitely not to be done by your average dog owner. Could do more harm that good

With regard to the aggression thing, I suppose again it is how you view "aggression" - I was thinking dog snarling at owner when it didn't want to do as it was told, etc. But the sort of aggression you are describing, where a dog is in pain and a bit "off" then that is not the same thing (to me). If a dog is unwell, he is bound to be a bit narked and I think allowances have to be made in certain circumstances.

As far as dogs getting along together in-house, well mine have shown their teeth and had a snap at each other on many occasions. Never hurt each other but, as soon as I hear anything just a raised voice "OI" stops them in their tracks

I`ve never had Toy breeds but I would imagine you have to handle a Chi differently to a GSD. Poking my GSD Daisy would produce a different response to a more placid dog. Poking my PointerShamus would make him freeze and growl because he would be expecting further pain because of his history. Poking my old Pointer would be plain nasty because he`s deaf and partially blind. Poking my Hound would send him into a complete dither because he`s intellectually challenged.
This is why I don`t like any `One size fits all` method.
Dog barking? Use a spray collar.
Dog growling? Assert your authority.
But how about if the dog is barking to alert you to the rats in your rubbish?
How about if the dog`s growling because it`s afraid of you?
These simplistic, quick fix solutions may well work in some cases, but because there is no underpinning philosophy (apart from the Dominance Theory) there is no way of adjusting them to the circumstances.

This perfectly sums up the problem with these posts. Yes I was being patronising and I apologise wholeheartedly. I'm afraid I feel have been unduly influenced by the tone of many posts on this site. My very first post received an attack on a personal level on myself, my ignorance and my gullibility. I've also read all posts regarding crossbreeds and feel there is a smug, self righteous element on this site which gangs up and venomously sets about attacking anyone who has a different opinion, or who, in their "ignorance", buys a deliberate crossbreed ,and God forbid, conflates the breeds names . These people are not responsible for every unscrupulous dog breeder. It is ethos, not breed which makes one unscrupulous. Dog breeds are as they are because x has a dog with certain traits and y has a dog which it is felt will complement and improve those traits. A dog is a dog is a dog. Some "pedigree" breeds would greatly benefit from cross breeding. There will always be unscrupulous breeders, target those, not people who just want a pet. As for training method, most of us don't want a dog to do tricks on command, but a well behaved member of the family and we do all we can to make our dogs happy and healthy. And yes we may not think you are right. I think this site has been been bad for my health and my (previously) good nature. I don't think it is for me. I do though wish you all the best. My grandma used to say "better a kindly silence "

I do understand where you are coming from. Like you, I am of the opinion "if you don't have anything nice to say, button it" basically. Of course, that doesn't include correcting someone if you think they are doing wrong but there is a way of correcting without belittling!

There are a few Members on this site that do get "carried away" in my opinion. I think though, on reflection, it is all done with the utmost best intentions, so I bear that in mind when I'm thinking "what a rude, jumped up ........" you get my meaning

There are many very nice, kind, sweet natured people on Dogsey. Don't let a few unkind comments or misunderstandings stop you from enjoying a site where so much can be learned and shared. We're a nice bunch really

EDITED TO SAY:

I've just looked at your posts, they have been on three subjects, one being CM and another being Deliberate X breeds. Both of these subjects always cause a stir on any Forum, so don't let responses cloud what Dogsey is really like.

I am sure you are right - a Chi must be different to handle from many large breed dogs. Don't let their size sway you from the fact though, that they are very much a DOG and so have all the same instincts, etc., that any large breed has. The Chi owner that allows their dog too much rope, because the dog is a little cutsey, is a Chi owner with a problem

My point is, CM has his methods, as do many other Trainers have their own methods. Because there are a few "idiot" owners out there that cannot adapt CM's methods to their own dog/circumstances, we should not completely diss him, as his methods work very well for many of us intelligent owners that know how to adapt his methods or totally leave a method out, because it is unsuitable for our particular circumstance.

It's all down to choice and that is what a lot of posters on this thread are missing IMO.