It certainly sounds as though Cain handled the park and so many people really well, especially having been so stressed earlier.
I can only assume that Roger was seeing how far he could go before Cain flipped, which I can sort of understand. However, I do think he should have talked you through everything he was intending to do before he did it.
If your visit to the farm is free, I think it could be beneficial (providing you are comfortable with everything they intend to do) for him to meet other dogs/situations in a controlled environment. You can always stop anything you don't like and simply get in your car and leave.
Good luck and I hope the rest of your day wasn't as stressful!

I think I don't like what you have described.

rune

very agree
I say go with your gut

Sounds like a rather stressful visit. Have to say, I personally don't agree with some of the methods you describe Mugford using in your post, but if the centre visits are free, it might not hurt to try, provided you remain firm on what your boundaries are.

Hope you and Cain are feeling a little more relaxed now.

I suspect if he was doing an assessment he may have been purposely pushing Cain, but it's not a way I like myself.
It sounds like he kept pushing rather than accepted what Cain is like.

I suspect you are right about the overwhelming thing Amanda, it does sound as if that would be the outcome as you describe it.

I'd be worried about some of the risks taken, too; but it's interesting as RM of course has defended owners and their dogs in court and so probably feels quite at ease with any legal outcome in that sense

I don't feel comfortable with what you've written really to be honest.

I am not totally sure what the situation is with Cain as so much has been going on - I wonder whether Chirag's view was simply that you really have been doing all the right things with Cain and that there was not much he could add? I am wondering if you feel you can somehow go further - and if so, how?

Is it possible that there is nowhere "further" to go in the training/behaviour sense? does that make sense?

Wys
x

Ps can't help wondering if the parting of the ways between the behaviourists was related to a difference in training views?

Wys, it absolutely was due to differences. Roger said that Chirag was obsessed with only using positive reinforcement, yet he believes there must be consequences. Chirag worked specifically to keen Cain under threshold and never even touched him, he said he believed what I said and didn't need to see it. I think Roger wanted to the reaction for himself....and boy did he get it definitely a clash in methods.

I'm not sure what I'm going to do. But I do wish I had my cheque!

I`m wondering if Chirag left due to these clashes. It`s quite a difference in method.
TBH I`d prefer Chirag.

I think I`ve taken Daisy as far as I can. She is safe provided she`s not trapped and challenged - I still have to watch her around trainers and frightened people. Both of whom tend to fix her with a stare that she rises to every time.
I think it comes down to management in the end. No dog is perfect. (Well mine aren`t) I know I can`t let Shamus off near a picnic for example.
And as time goes on you and your dog relax into your routine and tbh it seems a bit pointless to push the dog further.
I don`t think these reactive dogs will ever be the same as a dog who has never learned to react. But that doesn`t mean you can`t enjoy them.

I have deliberately kept my distance on this thread, however, speaking from personal knowledge and experience of Chirag (we have both been at same events) I have no hesitation in supporting his outlook in dogs with the behavioural issues that Cain exhibits.

I have to say that in all my personal experiences (bar 1) at seminars, training etc working a dog sub threshold has always been the preferred method.

The exception to this is CAT, which I do not endorse.

I worked the kids I taught below threshold and without confrontation as well---it makes sense not to provoke reactions which can't be controlled when the ultimate aim is to teach self control.

rune