Define "aversive"

but if you really know what you are doing all you need is positive reinforcement, mostly; and may include some negative punishment (which can give consequences if necessary to make things very clear) and extinction.

Not everyone understands how to use these, but good trainers do and they control resources and can control any dog (unless of course it has an actual behavioural problem in which case it's not a case just for training, as the dog needs a behavioural programme ...)

Hope that makes sense.

Wys
x

Sarah , has anyone said 'most people are going to use training devices incorrectly' .
Some people who have posted on here in the past certainly do use them incorrectly , we have seen people saying they rattle stones in cans/spray water/ throw things at dogs because they have seen trainers and people on TV doing this.

One think I don't find amusing is the prospect of people inappropriately using training aids they have seen others use and scaring dogs.

I guess I would define aversive as anything that the dog didn't like. So aversion methods for my dog is using water. He hates water so spraying him with water would stop him from doing something (like barking at other dogs when on his lead) when no positive thing could distract him.

What's the difference between distraction and aversion then? Because you could distract using something negative (like the water example, or spray collar, or noise) as well as something positive.

Right now I'm using what could be classed as an aversion method on my foster pup. When she gets too boisterous wrestling with Bryan, I put her in the kitchen behind a dog gate for 2 minutes. I've tried distracting her with food, toys etc. but it doesn't work.

Sometimes there are situations (IME) where positive methods don't work. I just think sometimes that on Dogsey people forget that this is the case. I don't believe that positive methods work in every single case.

Even the trainer at Dog's Trust tried using a rattle bottle with Bryan (he didn't even flinch ).

Neither do I. What I do find amusing is that some people assume that people are going to misuse things (that's the way it comes across to me, JMO).

Like BD, I have used them with a BC ....only needed three times, but this was a BC with obsessive lunging at cars, buses,motorbikes, when all else failed.

However i can understand the reasons as to why they may not be suggested as used but the APDT, and whilst I promote 99% praise and 1% correction, I have to say hand on heart I feel the discs did contribute to saving this particular dogs life...because she would of ended up under wheels.

I use what ever method works for that particular dog.
someone mentioned about high pain thresholds yes certain lines of some breeds do have these; I have worked a track with a dog early morning only for it to be pts a few hours later with an internal heamorrhage from undiagnosed heamangiocarsonoma.
Some dogs have extremely high drives and low tollerance levels, sorry but you cant pussy foot around with this type of dog otherwise there would be only 1 ending. Praise only would not work with this type.

I agree Wildmoor. Our first foster staffy had an extremely high pain threshold. I stood on her foot a few times (by accident) and she didn't flinch.

She was a dog who would be very aggressive with dogs she didn't know. In that situation no positive training can be used because (like you said) you can't pussyfoot around.

Along with Dutchies, they are the best dogs ever for the experienced handler who will work the dogs.

Don't lump us all together. I also train Malinois and Dutch for Schutz and French Ring (similar to KNPV and NVBK) and I don't use harsh method with my dogs. In fact, I tend to have them almost exclusively off leash, no e-collar.

I find being able to train these types of dogs makes me far more competent when it comes to dealing with "pet" issues. Dog training is not my profession, I am however reasonably competent given my success with my own dogs, the ones I've fostered that had many problems and the success of the people I've helped.

So you didn't 'Pussy foot' around and went straight to aversives?

I have worked with Dog-dog aggressive Staffies...oddly I managed to use positive methods.

Any method you use depends on SO many different factors...the dedication of the owner being a major one. IF an owner is willing to work with the dog for long periods on a daily basis then positive methods can work very quickly.

Alot depends on being able to find a dogs on switch.....with the Staffies I have worked with its been Tuggy games mainly.