I don't think in this instance, that the livestock chasing is purely an innate behaviour and down to his breed history. I believe it is a compulsive obsession brought about by three instances of self-rewarding experiences. Therefore I believe it's more of a behaviour problem than problem with a breed trait.

In some cases, dogs have been known to not generalise this training... owners have thought their dogs will recall around their area (and they do) but go away from that area and the dogs may not have generalised, so that the dog in that instance does chase, even though he's been trained with the ecollar.
(all training needs to be generalised before it is considered reliable).

You may be right, it is pointless looking at the dog breeds that are in your dog, if is well known that the product of crossbreeding may take after one side or the other or none at all. From a training point of view it is best to treat each dog as an individual, after all you do not know the dogs used in his make up nor their temperament so forget where he comes from and as you say deal with what you have.

It would seem you do have a lot of problems with this dog, did you rescue him and if so do you know why he was in rescue, before you jump down my throat you may have said before but I have not read it, unable to read everything time does not allow.

I have copied and answered this post here:http://www.dogsey.com/showthread.php...09#post1418409

As it is more on-topic than here.

Sorry Sally, on this thread you were discussing the dogs used to produce yours and the bearing on the problems you were describing in this thread, not sure this post belongs on the thread you have moved it to and I note you have not moved the posts to which I was replying so it would seem pointless for me to continue.

Was not aware that forum member could move peoples post around as they felt the need so I suppose you must be admin and would ask that in future if you feel the need to move one of my threads you send me a PM telling me why.

Someone ELSE brought that up.

I quoted it in the thread about my dog's livestock chasing as it seemed more relavent there.

I have only quoted your post, not moved it.

No, I'm not admin.

Sorry! Someone has already pointed out on this thread that it is getting off-topic to be talking about my own dog's livestock chasing and that such conversations should be directed towards the other thread. This is a thread about smacking and e-collars.

It has to be remembered also that the origins were unknown strays which may or may not have wolf in them, [ given they came from a country where hybrids are very common and they were strays so no actual ancestry known ], and there are recent hybrids around depending on which name they are given among the main unrecognised breeds of the same origins so its not even as simple as a case of two high drive sledding type breeds and Alsatian, there are many unknowns there too, any of which can cause conflicts of inherited traits within the dog, [ any dog that is where mixes are involved in recent ancestry be it 20 years ago for breed formulation or a purebred getting at Mrs Miggins different breed dog down the road ].

I have joked flippantly in the past about my BC x JRT, that with her parentage she could theoretically flush rabbits, [ JRT ], then herd them into a pen, [ BC ], but more seriously re topic at hand, any of the traits of her parentage could be active at any one time, she like any dog will be born with certain instincts - some dogs utilise them, some don`t, but they are there and could come to the fore at any time, so not everything is as learned a behaviour as it may seem, for many dogs the behaviour was always in there it, some get an instinctive trigger go off early, some late, some never, but in every breed or mix every owner should be aware that whatever their breeds inherited traits are, they can become active at any time - and to punish a dog for the traits they were born with, [ which humans must take responsibility for breeding in intensively at some time when it comes down to it ], is just plain wrong.


The main factor though which is still being ignored is that no dog which does not have a right to be around livestock should be off lead in their vicinity, so it should not be an issue.
Also, when a dog gets loose there is no way to predict how they would behave around sheep as the circumstances are just not the same as when on a walk with their owner, anything could cause a dog which is usually brilliant around to stock to end up chasing them, be it panic of being without their human to give guidance, to going through a hedge and coming face to face with a ram and being spooked into self preservation by trying to see it off.

As a shock collar is required to be on the dog and zapping done at a crucial timing every time, the running off scenario is a no go anyway, the first moment of looking toward a sheep with no one there to zap effectively gives the dog the go ahead to chase because they are not being `told` not to on that occasion.

Using it to train a `stay close` around livestock as per the example given previously, frankly that is also ineffective when a dog has done a runner because there is no one present to `stay close` to at the time so it`s a completely pointless thing to train as a way to keep a dog from chasing stock for in case the dog escapes the garden etc.

And as all dog owners have a legal duty to keep their dogs on lead in the vicinity of livestock the `on lead for the rest of the dogs life is cruel` aspect is a misnomer, all dogs should be on lead near stock, and if that means having to go further afield, [ scuse the pun ], for the dog to have off lead exercise then that is a duty the handler must accept.
Though when I lived in Yorkshire in a heavily stock inhabited area I never had a problem finding somewhere with no stock around, no area in the country is wall to wall sheep, there is always somewhere available even if its a chore for an owner to have to walk a bit further or drive somewhere to give the dog off lead exercise.

All that said, I can`t help but wonder if some are thinking a long line means just a flexi-lead or a very short line only a few feet longer than a normal lead ?
I have one which I use for recall training and for my tripod, [who`s exercise has to be carefully managed due to a lactic acid problem ], which enables a dog to have as much running area as a football field and does not make a dog feel restricted *at all* - also its not like lunging a horse with the handler stood in the middle and the dog only able to go in small circles which is the way I get the feeling some think it a line is used.
How many people let a dog off lead without using voice to keep them within a limited distance - an invisible long line in other words - so anyone who feels a dog which is on a decent long line is missing out on anything could perhaps use a bit of perspective and understand that we all use a long line of some sort be it attached to the dog or a vocal `lead`...

I really want to leave this alone but I can`t
Some basic info on NIs from the NI Society site is :

"Where a Northern Inuit has not proved a success however, is as a guard dog, due to their friendly manner and a willingness to greet any visitor as a long lost friend"

So that surely negates you wanting a dog to do Schutzhund with ? I assume it`s Alsatian which might make people think NIs could do it but that conflicts with the supposed total non-aggression NIs supposedly have ??
And a breed being developed from some sled breeds with whatever other breeds thrown in does`nt mean the end result is a sled breed, in fact the Standard which was recently discussed theoretically makes NIs physically unsuitable for sledding - all very confusing

and :

"Some N.I if introduced to livestock at an early age, will grow up not wanting to chase sheep and so on, but two or more N.I become a pack and pack instinct will take over, and as their prey drive is quite high, caution should be taken at all times when out near sheep, cattle or horses"

It does not however take two to be present, that`s a suggestion I feel which give`s an incorrect impression as any dog solo might chase stock, [ and often do ], but surely when researching it must have been clear that an NI living in a garden with sheep the other side of the fence and in a highly populated stock area might not be ideal and that management would be necessary, [ by management I mean the most secure fencing there is, never leaving a dog in a situation where escape is easily possible etc - Husky`s make Houdini look like an amateur and there is no escaping the likelihood of that trait coming to the fore ], but above all that its very clear if going by claimed breed traits that far from a learned behaviour NIs do have strong inherited traits regarding stock, this is not just a learned behaviour going on at all, and is something all NI owners should be prepared for in advance - and should, like the rest of the dog owning general population, keep them on lead at all times around stock.

My northern inuits engage in all of what sally in lancs has listed with the exception of flyball which we haven't yet tried. Nowhere has Sally said that she wants be top notch at any of these just that she wants to take part as I do with my dogs to all of our enjoyment.

I wonder if Sally's questions would have been answered differently if she had owned any other breed of dog and not had her choice of breed pulled apart like has happened.

I do know how Sally feels having a dog that has a problem with livestock. We also had one that wouldn't just chase he would kill if given the opportunity. He was a border collie.

The trump card has been played
No, I can honestly say I would feel exactly the same and say exactly the same with any breed of dog. In one of the posts I gave an example of a BC.
Please don't turn this into something it is not