Operant learning theory is directly relevant to all learning systems so obviously its relevant to e-collars treats or bramble bushes, Adam Palmer would do no good reading the R Casey & E Blackwell review, they did not understand the subject and ended up including 2 studies which did not even contain an e-collar, i.e. Schilder & E Schalke 07, neither of those had any e-collar used. Neither do e-collars and many, many other e-pulse items for use on humans operate by stimulating the pain nerve by passing an e-pulse at the pain nerve. You need to understand your dealing with modern digital advancements.

They actually target the sense nerve, not the pain nerve, the sense nerve is the most sensitive nerve in the body and that causes a pins and needles effect, if they are put far to high for long enough they would stimulate the c-fibres and that would cause a burning sensation if it were on for long enough, strange you don’t understand the subject you want to talk about, but then R Casey & E Blackwell included 2 studies which did not even contain an e-collar.

Maybe most important of all because the method has been mentioned and somewhat advocated is the least effective operant use highlighted as a method by Wysiwig, the negative punishment foundation method. Scientific studies show that to be 93% unsucsessfull for dogs in an exited drive state of stopping chasing etc, that’s a very dangerous application of operant indeed especially as skinner clearly stated that negative punishment only supresses a behaviour.

I`m having lunch. Guess what I`m having.

Not sure we should be asking.....

Wys
x

Adam, just in case it gets lost:

http://www.dogsey.com/showthread.php...63#post1933263

Would appreciate your reply.

Wys
x

mmm. nice and spicy. And a great view of the rickety-rackety bridge from where I`m sitting.

You will find in older posts Adam Palmer actually admitted if turning them up to a level past the first stimulus (his words) would actually cause pain. So if I am not understanding then he also isn't,
It seems to be the same argument pro e-collar people use, they dismiss any study that does not agree with their use, no matter the findings.
This study you will reject too but it also states the dogs responses indicate a level of pain and rather than the behaviour being stopped, it is learned helplessness they have learnt instead. Also talk of other studies proving that dogs taught with these methods did not perform as well.

http://vip.vetsci.usyd.edu.au/conten...aCresswell.pdf

There is another study I posted back in the post showing the dog is actually feeling pain.
So Polsky is wrong also I am sure.

Sensory pain can be painful, I suggest you look up neuropathy.

Again 93% of dogs may actually have learned helplessness.
Just because you claim those who don't agree with you are wrong even in studies.


I am unwilling to discuss this with you, your mind is closed, you find you need to try and demean people, and you are the source of all knowledge, you only accept studies that show what you believe in a positive light, you don't want a discussion, you want an argument. I have said my bit on here, my mind has been made up. E-collars are not they way to train a dog.
You can talk about the ins and outs of it and turn word to how you like, there is no standard for e-collars electrical pulse admitted. Call it stimulus, discomfort, sensory targeting, I really don't care, the simple truth is they are not all they are made out to be, and your arguement is mute as it is coming down to law that they won't be used, which is great
I am glad they are banned and hope that other countries follow.

soup??

Nikie

We have reason to believe you are a troll who has been banned from Dogsey. If that's not the case please send a photo of yourself next to a monitor with the Dogsey website on the screen - and we will unban your account. Thanks.

With fresh crusty bread I hope

The negative punishment comes into it because the dog doesn't get rewarded when not sitting. That's the basis of the training. Can be very stressful for a highly motivated dog.

Niki, troll or not's post are scientifically correct. The skinner stuff is the basis for all learning theroy and is styill taught today as the basis of learning theroy. Scientist aren't restudying it ect because they don't need to.

The nerve stuff is interesting. Lots of times e collars seem to get faster and more lasting results than other types of negative reinforcment training. Even though the aversive stimulus used is very low. Why is this? Possibly because of the nerve stuff.

Adam