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Location: Back in Canada, finally!!!!!
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 245
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07-05-2009, 08:29 PM
Inbreeding avoidance is a result of environmental and chemical cues. The strategies are very similar across species. From the environmental, we get examples of neonates transferred for care to non-familial parents. The exposure to these adults during their sexual development seems to inhibit sexual attraction to them and their siblings. The same strategies are observed in wolves as in humans and prairie dogs. From a genetic/chemical perspective experiments indicate that animals do not choose mates with similar MHC profiles.
Given that alpha's are 'exceedingly rare', there seems to be a lot of taking over by alphas...... I'm confused.
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Location: Virtual Showground
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 9,518
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07-05-2009, 08:53 PM
Originally Posted by Promethean 
Given that alpha's are 'exceedingly rare', there seems to be a lot of taking over by alphas...... I'm confused.
Her personality was always calm, relaxed, confident in herself without needing to put on shows of bravado, and she had a wonderful calming influence over scared, bolshy or even aggressive dogs wherever she went out and about and with any I fostered. She to me was the epitome of what could be considered `alpha`, and yes a dog like her with her qualities as a `gentle leader` for other dogs is rare indeed among canines, she was one of a kind for sure.
She never tried to `rule` me by taking over anything either, but she certainly ruled my world and my heart in every wonderful way
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Location: Dogsey and Worcestershire
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 49,483
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07-05-2009, 09:37 PM
Ok I said earlier today..
Originally Posted by Minihaha
May I clarify the point about regurgitation ...
Yes a bitch will sometimes regurgitate her food to her puppies. This often happens to wards the end of weaning when her milk is starting to dry up. Because the food has been chewed and mixed with the digestive fluids in the bitches stomach, I guess it may be easier for the puppies to digest but this behaviour is best prevented because it can cause the bitch to lose weight and correctly fed puppies have no need of this 'service'.
Now compare this behaviour with wolves, see the extract above. ''All adult wolves, including yearlings and a post-reproductive female, regurgitated food'' so it is not just the dam as in dogs, all adult wolves, so this is obviously the males too and a pack activity.
So just to recap ,'dogs' the male of the species as opposed to the female 'bitchs' do not regurgitate food for their young whereas male wolves do (as it would seem other females who are not the mothers of the young also do).
A male wolf will also regurgitate 'to the breeding female' .
Originally Posted by Gnasher
I did a google search for "bitches regurgitating food for puppies" and found this on here, posted by Minihaha :
"Bitches may regurgitate food to feed to their puppies, this often occurs when the puppies are reaching the weaning stage. When the bitch eats the food it may be chewed/mixed with saliva/ making it easer for puppies to digest, so it is a natural behaviour."
???Gnasher I find it very difficult to understand you at times, your reasoning seem to wander all over the place.
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Location: Dogsey and Worcestershire
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 49,483
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07-05-2009, 10:02 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher
It has been proved through the mitochondrial RNA that ALL dogs are the direct descendents of 4 female wolves.
Facts are facts, they cannot be altered. Dogs are tame wolves.
However, what we can debate about is how much of the "wolf" character is still there in our dogs. I say it is still there - scratch the surface of a Chi, metaphorically speaking of course, and therein lies the wolf. Good ! Wolves are wonderful creatures, and I for one revel in the fact that my dog's ancestors from tens of thousands of years ago were these magnificent creatures. (With Tai of course it is a bit more recent, with him being a Mal/Sibe cross, both of which were originally bred from wolves).
I have had many years of personal experience with my old boy Hal, who was a high % wolf cross, and many more years of interacting with domesticated wolves - some tame, some living as near the wild state as can possibly be achieved. It is fascinating to watch their behaviour, and compare it to our own pooches. I love watching wildlife programmes featuring wolves, I have recorded as many of them as I can and watch them over and over again. It is as if I were watching a pack of, say, Mals - not the hunting scenes of course, but the scenes where the wolves are relaxed and at leisure.
I am firmly of the camp that our dogs are domesticated wolves - their DNA proves it and so does the mitonchondrial RNA.
He certainly didn't look much like a high % cross wolf in the photographs on here , there was no mention of him being anything other than a Utonagan in old posts ..
http://www.dogsey.com/showthread.php?t=51272
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Location: South Wales
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,408
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07-05-2009, 10:24 PM
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Location: Virtual Showground
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 9,518
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07-05-2009, 10:32 PM
Originally Posted by Minihaha
Gnasher, you keep going on about wolves when this thread is about dogs and something else I don't understand, when did Hal become a high % wolf cross .I thought he used to be a Utonagan
He certainly didn't look much like a high % cross wolf in the photographs on here , there was no mention of him being anything other than a Utonagan in old posts ..
http://www.dogsey.com/showthread.php?t=51272
He was registered as a Ute and was used at stud at least twice, the first litter to an NI but they were registered as Utes apparently to also protect them from DEFRA.
Gnashers current adopted rescue [ who will apparently be bred from due to Ute rescue not neutering him
] is also registered as a Ute but is now apparently also part wolf... [ no mention of that when he was up for rehoming via Ute rescue mind you...]Why any Ute society would register crossbreeds whether of wolf x or not is a bit of a mystery to me, I thought they were supposed to be purebred to be eligible to be called Utes but hey ho
So there you have it Mini, hope that clarifies, I`m sure Gnasher will correct any details I have got wrong, [ though the above is what Gnasher herself has come out with ].
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Location: Dogsey and Worcestershire
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 49,483
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07-05-2009, 10:43 PM
Originally Posted by Heather and Zak
I agree Mini, he looks a stunning dog but I don't see much wolf if any in him.
he is indeed a beautiful dog .Thank you Patch for clearing that up
I was sure I had read Hal was a Ute and was surprised by all the references to him being a high % wolf. I was also looking at an old CM thread for video links and I noted Gnasher stated.. ''I've never owned a hybrid ... where did you get that from? Wrong Gnasher, wrong Hal. '' ''
God, I wish !! I would have sung it from the rooftops''
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Location: UK
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 5,551
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08-05-2009, 05:47 AM
Originally Posted by Hannaho
hi wysiwyg you may believe its incorrect but i believe otherwise ive seen it first hand ive been around working dogs all of my life and ive had a few of them try to be the boss of me but not my partner im the soft one so they take advantage of that.
Wys
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Location: UK
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 5,551
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08-05-2009, 05:52 AM
Originally Posted by Gnasher
I only quoted my own bitch because this was the best experience that I had. I have also seen this occur with other bitches ... the mother of Hal's first litter of pups springs to mind and I remember my friend's labrador regurgitating for her pups. I am absolutely sure my GSP, Hal's first wife and my friend's labrador cannot merely have been pure coincidence, I stand by my earlier statement that it is nonsense to say that dogs do not regurgitate for their pups.
I knew my dog from 24 hours old and visited the litter for many hours, and never once did her dam regurgitate. Neither did any of the other dogs there (which amounted to 7 other dogs in the place at the time)
I think wolf crosses would have to be discounted, would you agree?
as they're partly wolf so it maybe that some gene is telling them to regurgitate.Wys
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Location: Birmingham UK
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 20,832
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08-05-2009, 06:05 AM
Originally Posted by Patch
You and me both. I have only ever had one who could have been considered the nearest definition of a canine alpha, she was my oldie who passed away at 19 1/2. Never did she need to exert physical power - good job really as she was a little old lady, but my others showed respectful deference to her in all things, none ever tried to challenge her, none ever tried to take her food, if they were on the sofa and she wanted to get on she only needed to look to the spot she wanted and the others would dive off for her, no fearfulness involved just pure respect toward her as a matriach type figure.
Her personality was always calm, relaxed, confident in herself without needing to put on shows of bravado, and she had a wonderful calming influence over scared, bolshy or even aggressive dogs wherever she went out and about and with any I fostered. She to me was the epitome of what could be considered `alpha`, and yes a dog like her with her qualities as a `gentle leader` for other dogs is rare indeed among canines, she was one of a kind for sure.
She never tried to `rule` me by taking over anything either, but she certainly ruled my world and my heart in every wonderful way
Patch you have discribed reah to a tee
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