when did I ever say that I did not believe in evolution ? I don't believe I have ever said that dogs are EXACTLY the same as wolves. I said that scratch the surface and the wolf is there underneath. This is completely different from saying that dogs have not evolved. Of course they have, but they still share 99.8% DNA with wolves and they have been reclassified as the same species.

I am afraid I cannot alter the facts.

I agree some will kill - my lab has had two of my mum and dads chicken's but to chase something like a deer I wouldn't of thought that a Lab would kill if they caught up with it. My cross will run round my mum and dads horse's and if they run off will chase but it doesn't mean she would kill it if she caught up with them. She's been in the stables with them when we've been brushing them when brought in and doesn't bother with them.

Killed a goose !! WOW ! I am petrified of geese, she must be very brave ! Yum yum for her !

My parent's staffie killed and ate next door's cat. It was dreadful, but the cat came into his garden. He slept outside and had the roam of their very large garden at night and was not tolerating any competition. Extremely embarrassing

Tai isn't as good as Hal at catching rabbits. Hal was built a bit like a greyhound, very thin wasp waist, and a more wolfy narrow chest, unlike Tai who is mainly Mal and very large. He is terribly fast, but he cannot turn like Hal could. For a non-greyhound breed to catch a leveret I think is amazing, even if highly illegal !

No, I wouldn't have thought a lab could bring down a deer, although it could a muntjac possibly. Tai chases deer but we always call him off as he could get lost and also if he did manage to catch one, he wouldn't be able to kill it and would probably just maim the poor thing.

The wolf is nudging my hand !

Means he wants to go walkies ! See you later guys. Really enjoying this debate, it's great, and as kenny Everett would say, All in the best possible taste !!

And since you mention domestication, that too is another reason why the model is flawed. As E.Price (1984) writes in the Quarterly Review of Biology, Behavioral Aspects of Animal Domestication, "man's control over the breeding process have reduced competition for important resources, and thus have permitted selection for the retention of juvenile characteristics (neotony)" Putting the alpha concept into question and this is echoed by Frank and Frank in 1982. They noted that social behavior patters of dominace/submission were incomplete, a breakdown in ritualized aggression and that in dogs the strict social behavior of the wolf has disintegrated into "an assortment of independent behavioral fragments." This is why many people compare dogs to wolf pups, we've selected all the neotonous behaviors that made pups easy to handle, and why the alpha model is not the best approach.

You are stuck on DNA with you share with chimpanzees, yet you would not think yourself as a chimpanzee. The behavioral modifications that we've made through selective breeding mean that dogs cannot and should not be treated as wolves.

Because DNA is irrefutable proof of a connection or otherwise. We share 98% DNA with chimps ... this means that we are very closely related to them and share many of their physiology and characteristics. However, that 2% accounts for the very obvious differences between us, both physiological and psychological. Between wolves and dogs there is only a fraction of a % different - this is irrefutable, it is not a question of being "stuck" on anything !

Indeed we have made many behavioural modifications, but you can take the dog out of the wolf, but you cannot take the wolf out of the dog. He is in there, and will remain so for an awful lot longer. There is new evidence that man and wolf first started their symbiotic relationship as long ago as 100,000 years ago. This is a blink of an eye in evolutionary terms, enough to change the "icing on the cake", but nothing fundamental. The wolf is still there in our dogs, and long may he remain so. He gives our dogs most of their most attractive characteristics.

I am not saying that dogs should be treated as wolves, but we should bear in mind their wolf ancestry ... and respect it.

Oi you lot! Well done for making this a very interesting thread with lots of healthy, well behaved debate. I'm v.v. impressed!!

xx

I know !! I don't think I have ever had such a brilliant debate on Dogsey before ! I think it's Group Hug Time now !!