late for work now i apologize for the spelling Have a good day everyone catch you later

Hers an interesting link regarding the origins of dog showing and the reasons they came about.

http://animal.discovery.com/petplane...y/history.html

Mo

I'm not suggesting the showring form makes it impossible to do the job of work, it just hinders it in some cases.

While show breeders are selecting for their criteria, the qualities that make a good worker get left by the wayside but that's not to say they're going to be bred out instantly, just progressively diluted through the generations.

I've got very little experience of working qualifications but I do believe that the tests required by the KC to qualify for dual/triple titles are very simple compared to the actual job the breed was intended for. To gauge if the dog had the construction and stamina [edit: also temperament] to perform the original purpose, he would have to work in the field along side the workers.

Yes, sorry. Not meaning that all breeds have been altered and exaggerated for the showring. Dawn's Borders are a very good example of a breed that has changed very little.

Very interesting. Thank you mo

Yes! Yes! Yes! Agree with all of this!

But the point is that conformational merit does not prove the dog can do the job it was bred to do. It needs to actually DO the work for that.

Do agree with you Moobli. It does make me laugh when judges critiques say "moved round the ring looking like it could work all day" when truthfully this would not be the case with some. Although the build of the dog may be correct and built correctly so to speak, the proof would be in the pudding. It is wrong to make the statement all show dogs can work, the same as all show dogs can't work. It would be an individual thing. I do think though as most dogs would go to pet homes and most would find it difficult to work their dogs constantly, it is not a bad thing that there is a variation within breeds where the working drive does have scale variation.
Thankyou for the info you sent as well. All being well I'll be able to progress with bobs training.

Originally Posted by john100

Rightly or wrongly hunting still continues. It does in my neck of the woods From organized fox hunts to the man in the street with his terriers. OK you could argue there breaking the law and so they are, but it was never going to be an enforceable piece of (rubbish) legislation in the first place. At least these breeds still work. I read an article in the Countryman weekly not so long ago, regarding Borders and Pats and what a shame it was that more and more have succumbed to the life of the show ring dog.


I think the countryman weekly are mistaken, pats are not even kc recognised breed so I dont see how they could succum to a life in the show ring,,,,,


I feel we have lost so much from our dogs already. If for instance we take a pup from a pure working strain breed and rear it just for a life in the show ring

I dont know what the situation is in terriers, but why should showing a dog effect the rest of its life,,, not all terriers have the high work drive, even those litters from working parents will have one or two who just are not as intrested as some of the others,

I appreciate there are those who wrap up dogs in cotton wool, I do sometimes see it, and it gets my back up too, I have told everyone that knows me if they ever hear me saying oh he cant do this or that, he may get cut or hurt or what ever to hit me a good slap,

all dogs should be dogs first and formost, they should all be given the chance to run free through the woods, play in the river, go to the beach, roll in stinking stuff, {my lot often have a mouth full after the roll in it}

As someone who's first love is working dogs, not terriers, but GSD's in the early years and now rotts, I to used to look at show folk and snigger,,, some do deserve it, but a few of us dont get all wound up about it our dogs are still dogs and we still do ok in the ring,,,, I stopped showing royce after he fractured a front tooth and had to have it removed, thats life, he is happy I wouldnt change a thing, I dont think rotts would do to well being just models they need to be grotty dogs most of the time and on the odd day they get a good brush up and look ok, not such a bad life, eh,

(1) have we the right to deny the dog the life it should have.


Not all show folk deny there dog the right to a life, I do know where your coming from though,

(2) What are we doing to the dog psychologically, do they eventually succumb to the life we have given them.


To be honest for a dog to do well in the ring it needs to enjoy what its doing,, just the same as a working dog,
A dog thats not happy will just not do as well, you look at the top show winners,,,,they love it,, they stide out loving the attention and so on, I think any dog thats unhappy would not get on to great and the owner would soon give up throwing good money after bad on entering a dog in a show at the bottom end of the country which could cost a few hundred pounds between, petrol, entry fees, accomidation if its a fair distance, You just wouldnt keep it up for long if your dog never got placed, If they could talk what do you think they would say to us. I.m not denying that show dogs arnt bred to 'standards'. But that standard has been there for generations. Kept alive by men that were passionate about there particular breed. Mating his bitch with a dog from the niegboring village, there were no papers in those days either, with some unprenousable name 5 words long. There was no hip/eye scoring etc. Showing is about being best in the show ring, for our glory, not that of the dog. No one talked about standards years ago. They bred into there dogs the qualities needed to enable the breed to do there work and they got it right. In this modern world of ours can we say weve done those men proud. I think they would turn in there grave

I know where your coming from but still feel we should all be working together to improve dogs, It would be nice to see a working dog that can also hold its own in the show ring, I work my rotts and still manage to get to crufts, it can be done, ok mabey my dogs have not got that bling about them, but mabey they do, Its early days for me, I hope to be able to do whatever I want with my dogs in the future, ie, tracking, man work, obed, show, I began to show for breed about 5 years ago, its not my fav thing in the world, but I felt to breed I should do some showing to see whats out there, its the only real way to see so many dogs is to show, It took me a while but I now know what I want, as mentioned before to an untrained eye all rotts look the same,, but when you get the chance to see so many you then think no they are all very diff, you begin to get an idea of what dogs will throw bone, head, angulation and so on, so needed when your looking to improve what your bitch may lack,
I guess it could be said of borders and pats, if you put a few in front of me of similar type, I would be like they all look the same, where you may see very very diff dogs stood on the ground,,,.

But they do, I believe there are classes at crufts for gamekeepers, these dogs are working dogs, they do the job day in day out, not hobbie workers, Same in trials, with police dogs now doing the odd run round the ring, I dont believe for a moment that these titles are very simple to gain compared to doing the actual job, when in the past I have done obediance its far from easy,,ok its not a job but it far from easy, trials, again I would far rather do a track on my own with no pressure, when compeating its not easy,,, I feel there is a misconcepetion to how dogs gain titles in working,,,
not sure but how easy is it for a dog to gain a title in hearding, I would think again not easy for a collie that does it day in day out,
If your only doing it as a hobbie it must be even harder,