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Carla0305
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05-05-2011, 09:09 AM

Considering Raw - advice, opinions and experiences required please

I have been considering changing to raw for a fair while now but still weighing everything up.
They have bits and pieces of raw now and love it.

What did you feed before?

What difference did u notice in your dog after changing to raw?

Which supplier do you use?

I've seen the sticky guide to barf on here anyone recommend any good sites with similar info/variety info on?

Do you include fruit/veg in the feed?

I'm a great believer in feeding by sight to make sure amount is right - can anyone recommend a ratio to start at - grams of food/kg of dog weight?

What split do you feed - %meat/offel/bone?

At the moment 1 of mine is fed on orijen at a cost of 1.27 per day and 2 on F4D at 1.48 and 1.65 per day.

How much on average would you say it costs u to feed raw?

Thank you very much
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smokeybear
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05-05-2011, 09:17 AM
Raw Feeding Guidelines

Although many people successfully feed commercial foods to their dogs scores of owners are choosing to use fewer processed products in both their own diet and that of their pets.

After all dogs are not equipped with can openers or cooking utensils and were designed to hunt, catch, kill and feed on a wide variety of prey animals as well as to be opportunistic scavengers.

Dogs are scientifically classified as carnivores, manifest by their physique. They have eyes at the front of their head in order to observe potential food, jaws that move up and down, as opposed to the side to side movement present in omnivores/herbivores, no flat topped molars with which to chew and a shorter digestive tract reflecting the fact that they were created to consume little or no vegetation or cereals/grains.

Feeding a raw diet is often seen as somewhat revolutionary however it must be remembered that dogs have not only survived but thrived on such nutrition for hundreds of years prior to the advent of manufactured dog food.

One of the main concerns expressed by owners is that they cannot successfully replicate the scientifically researched diets that pet food companies quote as their USP (unique selling point). However, just as a degree is not required to adequately nourish ourselves, the same is true for our canine companions.

There is a plethora of information on raw feeding produced by qualified pet nutritionists and/or veterinary surgeons who have specialised in this field; therefore creating a satisfactory home diet need not be overly onerous or complicated for the ordinary dog owner.

Quantities

For adults approximately 2 - 3% of their bodyweight per day. Calculate this by multiplying 2/3 by your dog's weight and dividing it by 100.

Eg 2 x 30/100 = 600g, 3 x 30/100 = 900g.

For puppies feed circa 10% of their present bodyweight or 2-3% of their projected adult weight per day.

However be guided by your hand and eye; if the dog is looking a little too ribby up the amount and reduce if the dog is looking a little too well padded! Dogs will vary on their requirements depending on age, sex, activity level, temperament and time of year etc.

Frequency

Dogs should be fed twice a day for the following reasons:
• To minimise the risk of Bloat/GDV
• To avoid blood sugar fluctuations

Meats

Lamb, beef, chicken, turkey, rabbit, pork, venison, duck, hare, and/or anything you can get your hands on; some dogs regularly chow down on more exotic species.

Dogs require the correct calciumhosphorus ratio and so it is essential to feed raw meaty bones (RMBs) as well as muscle meat.

Offal such as hearts, lungs, kidneys, tripe, liver is also essential (although strictly speaking the heart is a muscle like the tongue).

Fish

Oily fish such as pilchards, mackerel, sardines, etc provide a good source of Omega 3; if it is difficult to obtain fresh, then tinned makes a good substitute. Tuna may contain high levels of mercury and is a less valuable source of Omega 3.

Vegetables

Onions must not be fed to dogs in any form as they can cause haemolytic anaemia which can be fatal. Avocados contain persin which can produce problems in some animals.

All other vegetables may be fed however, for a dog to get any nutritional benefit from vegetables, they must either be pulped or frozen, otherwise they go out the way they went in and can only be used as source of fibre.

Oxalic acid can interfere with calcium absorption; so don't feed too much of Spinach or Chard.

Care should also be taken not to overfeed vegetables from the cruciferous family eg cabbage, brussel sprouts, cauliflower, kale, swedes, turnips and broccoli to dogs as this may inhibit thyroid function.

Tomatoes, potatoes, peppers and aubergines all belong to the nightshade family of plants. Dogs who have arthritis may be sensitive to these foods which may exacerbate their condition. It is doubtful if raw potato can be digested successfully in any case.

Garlic is a useful addition to the diet as it performs an antiseptic, antibiotic, antifungal function.

Fruit

All except grapes (and raisins) which can cause kidney failure and death in even very small amounts. Bananas are an excellent source of pre-biotics essential for gut health.

Bear in mind fruit and/or vegetables should not make up more than 10% of diet and can have a laxative effect!

Dairy

No animal post weaning consumes milk bar humans however live yoghurt can be very useful for poorly stomachs because of its probiotic content provided that dogs are not intolerant to lactose (milk sugar) and casein (milk protein). As puppies leave their dams equipped with a full set of teeth bones are a more appropriate source of calcium.

Eggs can be given raw each day, the shells are good sources of calcium but only when powdered, otherwise they merely provide roughage.

Grains/cereals

There is no proven need for carbohydrates in the dog’s diet and of course these need to be cooked before they can be successfully digested by the canine.

Books (in order of simplicity/accessibility)

• Switching to Raw by Sue Johnson
• Natural Nutrition for Dogs and Cats by Kymythy Schulze
• The Barf Diet by Ian Billingshurst
• Give your Dog a Bone by Ian Billingshurst
• Grow your pups with Bones by Ian Billingshurst
• Work Wonders by Tom Lonsdale
• Raw Meaty Bones by Tom Lonsdale

Websites - Britbarf, K9nutrition yahoo groups the first is UK the second is an excellent US site,
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smokeybear
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05-05-2011, 09:22 AM
Originally Posted by Carla0305 View Post
What did you feed before?

JWB

What difference did u notice in your dog after changing to raw?

None

Which supplier do you use?
wholesalers, retailers, shops, various

I've seen the sticky guide to barf on here anyone recommend any good sites with similar info/variety info on?

See web links above

Do you include fruit/veg in the feed?

Yes see above

I'm a great believer in feeding by sight to make sure amount is right - can anyone recommend a ratio to start at - grams of food/kg of dog weight?

See above

What split do you feed - %meat/offel/bone?

I do not follow any of the so say "models" that other people quote, I feed what I think they need

How much on average would you say it costs u to feed raw?

See specific thread on forum
There is a plethora of information on here if you go through the RAW FEEDING threads.

HTH
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krlyr
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05-05-2011, 09:25 AM
Originally Posted by smokeybear View Post
There is a plethora of information on here if you go through the RAW FEEDING threads.

HTH
Yup, definately read through the raw feeding section.
If this helps, this is a post I made on another forum the other day to someone asking behalf of a friend considering rawfeeding

I feed raw and I think the most important bit is do your research. Get her to stick raw feeding into Google - yeah, she'll find some duff sites with bad advice but she'll find a whole variety of opinions, there's not really one set way of raw feeding. I joined up to the Yahoo group BritBarf which is helpful but I think what helped the most, aside from just reading everything I could find, was the fact that one of the general dog forums I'm on has a high percentage of raw feeders and several are very "up" on nutrition, so their posts make for great reading.

When I was reading up about it, I looked at various views and decided the prey model diet made the most sense to me. This is based off the idea of wolves eating so much meat/bone/offal off their usual prey, accounting for the larger bones that they wouldn't eat. You aim to feed 80% muscle meat, 10% offal (liver, kidney, lung, pancreas, brain, etc. - heart counts as muscle though, not offal) and 10% bone (RMB - raw meaty bones - such as chicken carcasses, lamb ribs, etc., smaller edible bones rather than the larger recreational marrow bones, knuckles, etc). You then feed 2-3% of their ideal body weight, for example, Kiki is a good weight at 77lb, so gets about 1.5lb a day (on paper that's 1.2lb being meat, 0.15lb offal, 0.15lb bone, but you can balance it out over the week/month rather than every day needing to be perfect daily. So she may get 1.5lb meat one day, 1lb bone, 0.25lb meat and 0.25lb offal the next, 0.5lb offal and 1lb meat the next, etc. - you soon learn to get the right amount by eye too, so you're not constantly having to weigh things to the exact pound)

I found a specific raw food supplier who supplies meat for pet dogs. He goes straight to the abbatoir and chops things into chunks or minces them, bags up into 2lb bags and sells them on. Makes it very economical, but with the money saved I can buy slightly meatier cuts from the supermarket, as I don't think it's ideal to purely feed minces. For example, the supermarket had reduced steaks last night so the dogs had a big steak each for dinner, which gets their jaws really working. Another day I might find a kilo of chicken legs reduced, tons of meat on them and makes the dogs work for dinner. My supplier does sell bones too though - I buy 15kg boxes of carcasses, wings, etc. and portion them out, he sells whole rabbits, chickens, big double chicken legs, lamb ribs, etc. as well as selling liver and mixed offal. Basically I can buy everything I need from him but I think grab the odd bit from supermarkets to give some more variety in terms of meaty bits vs mince (plus fish). Having a chest freezer is essential to me, it lets me buy in bulk (my supplier isn't really local, I'm just on a delivery route he does once every 4-6 weeks) and I can grab real bargains knowing that I have the freezer space (for example, the time I went to the supermarket late at night and they had about 10 packs of reduced chicken portions - nabbed them all!). If your friend has the guts to do it (no pun intended, haha), there's even the roadkill option - I've stuck a dead bunny I found in the garden in the freezer to feed, and I'm gutted that the one time I drove past a dead deer right at the end of my road it was on a morning that I was mega late for work. Still regret not stopping to nab it, I bet my supplier would've taken it back to portion up for me for a small fee/percentage of the meat. I know a few people who contact their local hunt for leftovers from game and stuff so that's another option if she's near anything like that. Otherwise, butchers, abbatoirs, fishmongers etc. can be worth trying, thoguh unfortunately (over here at least), they're cottoning onto the whole raw feeding thing and often end up charging money for "pet minces" which are high in fat and offal and not very meaty.

I personally don't feed fruit or veg regularly - this tends to be more the BARF style of feeding. I do get green (uncleaned) tripe which is one of the main meats I feed though, lots of prey model feeders give tripe because it contains the vitamins and minerals from the partially digested food of the cow/whatever animal it's from. I add the odd extra though because I think variety is the spice of life - the more variety, the more vitamins/minerals you cover, plus it gives the dogs the mental stimulation of different foods.
I like to include fish fairly regularly as fish oils are good for the coat and joints, especially as wolves in mountain areas would often fish for salmon in streams. I tend to vary the fish - sometimes it's frozen white fillets, sometimes it's sardines, mackeral, etc. from tins (rinsed of oil/sauce first though), lately I've been feeding a pre-made salmon mousse because it was on offer and worked out a cheap way to feed salmon (it's 99% salmon) and works well as a Kong stuffer too.
I also feed raw eggs (chuck an egg in the bowl so it breaks slightly and let the dogs figure out the rest), they may get some yoghurt if I happen to have some left over but it's not a frequent thing, sometimes they'll get leftover veg or rice if I cooked too much.
I add salmon oil to their food occasionally and I do homemade treats with salmon oil, glucosamine, chondroitin, etc. in just for a little boost but I don't really add a regular food supplement (I have powdered seaweed, bought a big tub for the rats but it's huge so the dogs get it occasionally), the dogs are doing fine without anything added.

The dogs are doing very well on it, it's been a year and a half/nearly 2 years I think (switched not long after getting Casper), no health problems (other than a tummy bug that was going around), shiny coats, clean teeth, good weights. I'm very happy with feeding raw and my mum was so impressed that she's recently switched her pup onto 100% raw (she was giving it occasionally before) and pup is loving it. I will definately feed raw unless it becomes totally impractical/impossible.
It can seem quite overwhelming at first but it soon clicks. Just remember that humans don't eat/feed their kids a 100% complete nugget food (well, there's pre-made babyfood but beyond that), we manage to get a roughly balanced diet just by knowing that we need to have carbohydrates, proteins, etc. so if we can do it for ourselves, we can figure it out for our dogs. If your friend is that worried about getting the balance wrong then there are pre-made raw diets out there that may be worth looking into.
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Moon's Mum
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05-05-2011, 11:18 AM
I fed Royal Canin GSD kibble and Chappie before

My personal experience is that Cain's stomach us far more settled and hardly ever gets colitis now (he had a very sensitive stomach on kibble).

I use the Dog Food Company supplier

I include whole/left over fruit and veg dot variety and bulk but not really for nutrition as I do not blend it. He gets a whole carrot daily.

I started out on 2% of his body weight but reduced it. He now gets around 700g a day for a 47kg dog. I feed approx 80% meat, 10% offal and 10% bone.

It costs me around £20-25 a month to feed him.
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Carla0305
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05-05-2011, 11:44 AM
Dogfoodcompanysupplier looks good. Need to find out if they will deliver this far over!

Thanks for your answers
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krlyr
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05-05-2011, 11:47 AM
Scott does have quite a wide delivery area - he's based in Suffolk but he delivers to me in West Surrey and I know he's delivered a little further west too as his stop after me is Camberley. Definately worth asking him, but don't be disheartened if he doesn't reply ASAP. He tends to be pretty good at answering the phone unless he's on holiday (he doesn't tend to tell you he's going on holiday and I end up panicking that he's gone AWOL then get a reply to my texts/emails saying he's back and will deliver that week ) so ringing might get you a quicker answer.
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Carla0305
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05-05-2011, 06:02 PM
If he goes all the way to Camberley then I should be ok - im just a long way from any major roads.

What does he charge for delivery?
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krlyr
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05-05-2011, 07:49 PM
I live down a dirt track farm lane (albeit only a mile and a bit from town) and he delivers to me! I think it's about £5 delivery with a minimum order of £20
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