Are you comparing I sort of want a nummy treat now I just need to figure out how to get it... With jabbed in the neck with pointy sticks but I don't know why?

'with holding a treat' does not cause mental discomfort. I would say try it with your dogs and see but they're likely so scared of you they'd probably wet themselves wondering what new punishment or torture this is... But with my dogs having a treat but them not being allowed it is a perfectly happy relaxed place to be... It happens every time I have my dinner...

When we bring it into a training context. I don't begin by ramping up their excitement about the treats but then 'with hold them' that would be the way you train. You have to stop thinking like dog torturer for a minute. I ask for my dogs attention and they come to me wondering what new 'good thing' this might be. We are all still relaxed. I wait, but keep their attention, naturally dog relaxes bottom begins to drop and low and behold mana from heaven there's a treat... This was fun! Now I really have the relaxed but happy attention of my dog who is now wondering how can I get another yummy treat. Again no treat is in my hand no treat is being offered and with held... It is not about discomfort it's about harnessing happy relaxed curiosity.

Another thread where Adam can promote his dog abuse - and still be a member?

Prong collars, are a lot nicer than chokers - a lot but by no means the answer to a dog pulling. Prong collars have a limit however in the wrong or misinformed hands - they are as lethal as giving a baby a plastic bag to play with.

So to answer the original question, no, no pet owner should be allowed to purchase or use one, unless guided in a manner of responsibility and when said owner learns to respect the dog and not the tool.

It doesn't matter what you or anyone else thinks is nicer, it matters what the dog thinks is nicer.

Btw regardless of you opinions of them people will use them.

Adam

Have you ever tried using reward based training, Adam? If so, how many times did you have to withhold the reward? If not, but a really tasty (your dog's favourite) treat between the thumb and finger of one hand. Move your hand a few inches over to one side. Did your dog's head follow the treat hand? More importantly, did you immediately give the treat/drop in in front of your dog when it did? Do you feel you withheld the treat?

For now, once we have got one thing banned we can move on to others.

Then you'll have to try and actually train a dog with skill.

Anyone want to make any bets?

rune

I'm pretty sure the dog doesn't like either so to use the word 'nicer' in connection with either is a bit of a contradiction in terms.

Yep, there will always be people who will use them - how sad is that!!!!!!

From what you think your dog thinks - I'd be a better trainer.. I suppose your dogs would love having a prong around their throats, just like they love the e-collar right?

And at least people will see the sense in our opinions.

I'm using withhold to mean not give the treat, so in your example your withholding the treat until the dog moves its head over.

Btw yes my training involves a lot of rewards.

Adam

you do not 'train' Adam you bully!

yip (well thats should be )

if only u really meant that

no ,as usual its about quick fix's

yes people also kill each other too...and?